Make unique weapns for Dark and Light Force

[scron2]

That's bullshit. "you need map control" --> if you really wanted a frost lazer you have to suicide to get it. And now you are trying to tell me that going into someone's base and buying something is hard to do when they don't have map control? It's the same argument.

[IlPalazzo]

I the pity the person who needs to suicide to get a frost laser when his team has control over the map (has 6 CPs)... Hell, even with 3 CPs it's possible to get to the midshops and buy what you want without dying. With no CPs, yes you'll probably have to suicide to get what you want because your team lost control over the map. But do you not see the difference? Whether or not you have safe access to these shops depends on how well your team performs in taking and holding the middle.

With team specific weapons, how your team plays has little impact over what your team has access to. All that matters is which color team you chose before the map began. Their weapons will always be under their part of the map, whether you have none of the CPs or all of them. That's the difference - along with the inherent imbalance that will come with having such a shop on each side.

[scron2]

Well I have been in games where people have suicided to get a frost lazer. How well your team plays is a huge issue here. If you have access to weapons that are in your base that could turn the game around 7k-20k value then you have a far greater chance to win than if you absolutely have to suicide to get any of the better weapons.

I think it would be unanimous that people would prefer not to be completely boxxed in when they are clearly being held back by a feeder or for some other unfortunate reason. By your definition of protecting the middle shop, let's make the one base tag it every 10 mins after they lose all 3 cps. Because if they can't even get there.... the game is over (more than likely)!

Here you are making your point again about having 3 CP's saying it is possible to get to the midshops. Yet again, it is still possible for one team player to get to the other side and buy something from the enemy base (assuming the shop is put near the border of the base).

I'm not saying introduce new weapons in the 1-4K range but rather the mid-range values of say 8k-20k with respective damage outputs.

Balancing weapons isn't that hard. The team that should be able to comeback, should still have a chance and not have to suicide to the mid shop to get real firepower. Simple reasons why Btanks needs new higher damage weapons available in each base.

BUT as I can assure you since I'm suggesting this it is gauranteed to never ever ever happen. So why argue with me?

I'm done here.

[GooglyBoogly]

mid-range values of say 8k-20k

I don't know what games you play, but I would not consider 8-20k to be midrange.

[IlPalazzo]

Adding a new merchant to both sides for "real firepower" will do just fine, you don't have to make team uniques to achieve that end.

[karate_kid_x]

That's bullshit. "you need map control" --> if you really wanted a frost lazer you have to suicide to get it. And now you are trying to tell me that going into someone's base and buying something is hard to do when they don't have map control? It's the same argument.

I think this forum as a whole needs to realize what "imbalanced" really means, Here's a great series of articles on it: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html(mostly on the issue of HB)

A thing that either side can do to give themselves and advantage is not imbalance, it's called a tactic. Especially if it's something as fundamental as controlling the middle.

[scron2]

And now you say that adding a new merchant solves that problem. Ok at least that phase of the argument is done.

Now on to the final phase... making the weapons have unique characteristics is something that is balanceable.
One weapons is longer range, the other gets lower range by like 200, whatever.
One is a single projectile, one is many, or a combination of the both.

I keep on seeing my friends saying lazer beats alot of single-shot things. These are definitely 2 extremes.
Keep the items similar enough so that this doesn't happen.

So long as the items are similar enough like frost lazer and death claw lazer, you aren't far off and things
could in theory be balanced if they separated the 2 lazers to each side just as an example.

All you have to do is switch up the ranges a bit and the dmgs or the projectiles etc to the point where they are
unique and cool and have a theme to them "light / dark", whatever. They just can't be 2 completely different things
like "infernal rocks vs lazer" -- that in my opinion is not really a fair matchup.

So again why can't unique items be balanced? Is it because some RULE exists that says "both teams must be able to get it?" and as you remember we covered that issue already by claiming the mid shop can be inaccessible, which is inherently the same argument. Ok, so lets do this?

[IlPalazzo]

So again why can't unique items be balanced? Is it because some RULE exists that says "both teams must be able to get it?"

Horselance's post summed it up pretty well...

Some weapons will generally be preferable to others that are supposedly "equivalent." Poison Magics are generally preferable to short ranged players than short lasers due to the slight variation in lower range/higher DPS. Personally, I prefer Energy Torpedoes over Bombarding Rockets because of the longer cooldown/higher burst damage. Even if you tweak with range, damage, and rate of fire with each team unique slightly, one weapon will likely be agreed to be more useful than the other. By restricting weapons to a certain team/side you're limiting and dictating the way people play. There is no rule that says "both teams must be able to get it," but it's a lot more easier to keep the game balanced that way. If a player from one team is forced to trek to the enemy base to get a weapon he wants just because he chose a certain side, then it is unfair to him.

and as you remember we covered that issue already by claiming the mid shop can be inaccessible, which is inherently the same argument. Ok, so lets do this?

Please read my past post... Trying to get to a weapon from the middle is NOT the same as going to the enemy base to get a weapon. If you still can't understand that, then try to visualize a situation where the mappers decided to move all the midshops into the Dark Force's base and left the Light Force to grab it from their enemy's base. One is clearly unfair, and one team has one advantage over the other before the game even began. This will be the same case if one team's uniques are better (even if it's very slightly better) than the other team's special weapons.

[scron2]

Give an example of one team that will always lose to another team, and give the weapons each team can use.

Be sure to provide a "balanced" example so we may all understand where you are coming from because if you are
good at this game it won't matter which weapons you use.

SO for example poison magic is not comparable to lazer since lazer's range upgrades.
BUT other weapons are like swarm rockets & fan of knives.
Molotov's and basic magic.

For example let's make up some "imaginary weapons in the 7k - 20k range.
1) Gatling Gun 11000 - a gun that fires quickly with 900dps range upgradeable from 700-800-900; also upgrades dmg by 50 each time. cost of upgrade 2300.
2) Homing missles - a missle that must target a tank (when present) 50% of the time medium cooldown. Damage 800dps; range 888; increases hit% by 10% and dmg by 50 up to 3 times. Cost is 13000, upgrades cost 1500.
3) OMG Lazer - costs 50,000 5000 DPS lowest cooldown, range is 800. No upgrades, it's that good.
4) Flame thrower - Costs 40,000 range 777 4000 DPS with an AOE fireball that damages all bad tanks for 100 dmg/sec for 10 sec in a 300 AOE of the target. No up.

Now assuming these weapons were "introduced" into each base... Dark gets Gatling Gun & Flame OMG Lazer and Light gets Homing missles and Flame thrower... what would be the big balance issue here? Sure there are some differences in prices n shit but really... if you can buy an OMG Lazer then you can definitely get to the middle shop right? Answer may be yes or no here and it is irrelevant, the point being that it can be bought is what matters. Coming up with weapons to be uniquely added is not an issue here really. If you have to suicide to get a 50K item, then it's worth it. TP is 3500 range, there is no excuse to say "I can't get to the other base" because if you can't then you shouldn't be able to because the game is already clearly over. Seriously if you can't get to the mid shop without dieing, you have lost as is the case with reaching just the outer wall of the opponents base. Weapons mean dick at this point and imply nothing of the early game. We are talking late-game here folks.

Using my hypothetical weapons, what in the fuck is the problem here? There isn't a problem. People don't talk about balancing weapons because they don't want to balance them. It doesn't matter where they are bought from but what is key here is that this aspect is constantly being ignored and mindlessly being hashed into the game which is why HB is being ignored as is late-game Normal bounty. There needs to be weapons that are more expensive and powerful, regardless of which side has them or where they can be bought from, that shits called strategy and if you guys have "ISSUES" with implementing things into the game that imply other strategies then so be it. You already have the mid shop, so why the fuck not have unique shops for each base (you will be introducing weapons into the game anyway). TOO MUCH WORK? As if this game is already balanced, adding in new dimensions of strategy is negligible.