THE MINES!! To strong, good enough or to weak?

[TKF]

I agree that the mines are quite powerful and lethal. Very difficult to push demolisher with light tank. If you try to push, you will most likely in most cases suffer great damage from multiple mines. Iron hull is almost a must have or else you will be easily killed.

I think the mines skill are much better than the shockwave and artillery when compared, cuz with mines you can "store" damage which can be triggered later.

[DerSatan]

as i said, i think its the multibow, not the demolisher which seems a little bit too strong to me, because with less weapon-investments you shouldnt be able to creep that great.

but i have to agree, theres no reason why mines doesnt deal at least half of their damage to allies, as explosives do.

[Exodus]

Even if they did, that wont change the fact that they still do a lot of damage.

[horselance]

No man... It is not Multibow... I was playing with helli + multibow(upg) until a time ago. Even you have an upgraded multibow at startup, and having the flight advantage, something is missing that way... You cannot push enemy easily and get pushed. But with mines, you fear your enemy and prison them to their base. Or at least drawing a safety line between enemies and yourself... Because mines are always there and waiting to damage an opponent but rocket etc other abilities dont have such potential...
It isnt multibow. It is mines...

How lovely it would be if there was a flying miner around 1500 gp:) A mixture of helli and demo:) ahaha...

[DerSatan]

Even if they did, that wont change the fact that they still do a lot of damage.

right. this wasnt meant as a balancing thing, rather as a "reality" factor, and for adding some straightness into the game. explosives damage allies, mines dont. :?:

I was playing with helli + multibow(upg)

multi bow has a quite short range for a starting weapon, and heli got too few HP to play with it in my opinion. other tanks can set a heli with m-bow under pressure much easier than a demolisher, not only because the mines, but because of the huge HP difference.


btw: just postet a replay which shows some action about this topic: LINK

[Althend]

In reality, mines can kill enemies as allied people (or most of the time innocent children...), why not doing it in btanks?
Then the demolisher is also paralised by his mines.

If you think the damage is ok, then make it explode at contact of any tank (allied as enemy).
It is the best way to balance it and make mines still useful. :p

[horselance]

No no... It musn't be triggered by allies but damage must apply to allies. Otherwise you cannot walk anywhere...

[Althend]

No no... It musn't be triggered by allies but damage must apply to allies. Otherwise you cannot walk anywhere...

You still cdan walk and you just have to stop to draw a line on the way.
Then it would be possible to guess the mines by looking at the movement of demo :o
The advantage of putting the mines would be to see them and getting money when you kill an enemy :p

[TKF]

Well, causing the mines to do damage friendlies when triggered, doesn't sound that bad.


Also making defusing enemy mines to be harmful against them.


But playing against demolisher mines, it's quite annoying. It's not tempting to buy defuse stuff when the demolisher is worth less than defuser and radar.


Mines do cost 10 mana pr level, have 40 sec cooldown, does quite much damage. Also the only ability that gets stronger for every attack upgrade. Demolisher is a very good strategy against light tank, and maybe heli too, but against tinkers (when they get hull) the demolisher is often most ineffective against them in terms of low firepower at start. Demolishers have high hp, so they won't be so easily killed from tinker towers either.

I have to admit that I dislike playing against demolishers with mining tactic with weaker tanks than demolishers.

[Frechheit]

Well, causing the mines to do damage friendlies when triggered, doesn't sound that bad.


Also making defusing enemy mines to be harmful against them.


But playing against demolisher mines, it's quite annoying. It's not tempting to buy defuse stuff when the demolisher is worth less than defuser and radar.


Mines do cost 10 mana pr level, have 40 sec cooldown, does quite much damage. Also the only ability that gets stronger for every attack upgrade. Demolisher is a very good strategy against light tank, and maybe heli too, but against tinkers (when they get hull) the demolisher is often most ineffective against them in terms of low firepower at start. Demolishers have high hp, so they won't be so easily killed from tinker towers either.

I have to admit that I dislike playing against demolishers with mining tactic with weaker tanks than demolishers.

100% Right

[DerSatan]

mines shouldnt be triggered by allies, thats just too much nerf. if you do that, you should make abilities like the heavy tank's ulti also targeting allied units, including himself. thats just weird.

Well, causing the mines to do damage friendlies when triggered, doesn't sound that bad.

Also the only ability that gets stronger for every attack upgrade.

no. the ghosts spawned from the ghost tank benefit from both upgrades, as well as the summoned creatures from infernal, guard and demon tank.
i think the exploder mines benefit too, but it doesnt matter, they are totally useless anyway :wink:

[Vomitus]

You can add a chance to trigger a mine by allies. Let say, 10-20%.
This chance also could be applied only when an enemy tank is in your sight of vision(or lower). Otherwise - no triggering occurs.

OR / AND

You can add a chance of critical failure. Let us say 5%. Or it could increase/decrease with skill level/mine cost.
Critical failure can act in two ways:
1. You can blow up yourself when setting the mine / you can break the mine when setting(skill is used, mana spent, cooldown activated, but mine did not lay).
2. Mine can misfire when triggered. Then no damage is done.

AND

I fully agree that mines should deal damage to allies when triggered. 50%.

------------------
According to triggering mines by allies.
In ways of realism we can imagine some situations.
1. Minelayer is relaxed because no enemies are near. He is in fully concentrated on own mines and can safely ride by minefields carefully pass through mines.
2. A Minelayer is in hot battle around his minefield. One or a couple of enemies are near and they attacking. Concentrating mostly on enemies Minelayer pays much less attention to own mines and can make a mistake accidentally triggering own mine.
That's because we can add only a slight chance triggering own mine.

_Edit

About voting.
I voted for no change but it is wrong. Though, I don't think mines are too weak or too strong. It is just another strategy and the power of mines at this moment does not creates its' imbaness. Mines should be changed a bit but not nerfed or buffed. Changes have to be qualitative rather than quantitative.

[horselance]

Why I say no to ally triggering:
You lay the mines to side of nearby your base, never ex: 65% far from your base. You always tour where your mines are. Even it is 10% it is a big chance because you pass a mine every second... I say NO to ally triggering or maybe 1.5% or less.

Crittical failure can be done.. can countdown by levels as 40%-32%-24%-16%-8%... Blow up? No.. Misfire? No... When you send a rocket, there is no faillure. It will only apply when placing, at least you must know if it is placed or not, unless you can't trust any mine, will it explode or not?...

But still it needs a damage reduction because still it kills a helli at lvl3 alone. No skill, no action but only a click... Hmmm when saying a click i got a idea now:) How about making mines manual use? 2 options: you can auto-cast to make it explode when a tank gets near. Or you can disable auto-cast to use it manual but when it auto-explode it will cause less damage because it will explode when enemy tank is not near enough (about 50% damage)... Manual control will be only way to cause it explode in time and cause maximum damage... This can make it a little action and skill-required skill...

lol i liked my idea

[Vomitus]

If make mines triggered manually then their damage should be INCREASED by 50%.
Or the mines will became useless.

So, manuall triggered lvl3 mine will do more than 1500 dmg(must be balanced to can kill lvl7 Antigrav). And auto-triggered lvl3 mine will do only about 750 dmg.
I don't think you'll be able to control all of your mines if their number will exceed, for ex, 10(I talk about myself actually:)).

Why I say no to ally triggering:
You lay the mines to side of nearby your base, never ex: 65% far from your base. You always tour where your mines are. Even it is 10% it is a big chance because you pass a mine every second... I say NO to ally triggering or maybe 1.5% or less.

Well, yes, a bit confusing issue. I just put here some thoughts about mines and realism. But it seems you read my post inattentionly:). I mentioned about having this allied-triggering ability to work ONLY when enemy is near. And this radius can be balanced(I think about 600-1000 is good).

[horselance]

Vomitus wrote:
So, manuall triggered lvl3 mine will do more than 1500 dmg(must be balanced to can kill lvl7 Antigrav)

I still dont understand why mines are seen as one-shot one-kill ability... Which ability has such damage? 320/level damage is really good and +3% per wepon level... I already suggest this idea because it has more damage than other abilities so must have a negative side.

And this radius can be balanced(I think about 600-1000 is good).

You are always in 1200 range with enemy all the time... But more than 600... It can cause serius bugs and much work to be done...

[Vomitus]

As I've said mines should NOT be nerfed.
And making them trigger manually could make playing mine layer insane!
Especially when damage is not enough to make it cost to control.

By the way...
I've considered a bit this suggestion.
If you can turn off auto-triggering, then your enemy can walk on the mines as long as he wants and you can always wait for a moment when he appears on the mine with low hp to trigger it. Quite strategic issue I'd say:). But then, is it really possible to encounter such good situation for mine layer?

Well, I think making manual triggering + +50% dmg would be good to make reason to control the mines. I have nothing more to say at the moment...

[horselance]

Well in fact i was going to say the same... It can be even more advantageous in a Pro hand. Because you can wait enemy to get a lower hp and blow him when he is eg. half hp. Or you can blow 2 mines when he is between 2 of them... Normally you cant do that because when enemy hits a mine he returns back...

+50% is not necessary because when u get 50% bonus, it already nearly same damage as it does now when you will auto-cast. They must be strategic tools, not blowing an enemy in one shot... You must fight enemy and when you catch him enough hp on your mine, you blow him. Or harmonically you can kill a full hp enemy by blowing all 3 mines when he returns back... (you cant do that now)

I say this adds more strategy to mines and some skill requirement like all other tanks do need... And recent damage is enough for this.

Laying the mines and sitting in your base is not a gaming... (well i do the same but it is so easy and powerful to do that...) Even jumping with explosives needs a skill...

[Tribulation]

If mines could be triggered by the mine-laying player, and would not explode automatically when someone steps on them, the possibility to counter them by setting them off on purpose, piece by piece, would be gone. I was a demo in my last game, and played against a shredder, who went into one mine at a time and then retreated, so I could never pile up enough mines to kill him, and he couldn't kill me either, since he had no weapons. The shredder would have a major disadvantage if he could not sweep mines anymore in such a situation, and it would be even greater for low-hp tanks. Therefore, I don't think it's a good idea to enable strategic triggering by the mine-laying player.

Edit: I agree that mines should do collateral damage to everyone around them, it's just not logical/fair otherwise. Earlier, I had a game in which a tinker held mid and heavily mined their cp with two mine-laying kits, he literally put tons of mines on their cp (I have no idea how he could even put so many of them so closely together), thus it was impossible to conquer it even with high-hp tanks, since the defending enemies took no damage at all, while we lost half our hp (or more) to mines. If they had had a suicider, he might have teleported in and killed us, but he would have damaged his mates as well.

[DerSatan]

after some more games, i really think the mines are a bit too strong.

my suggestion: change their damage to 250 or 260 per level, but slightly reduce the cooldown and mana cost.

this would lead to more mines and bigger minefields, but the single mine would be less lethal than it is now.

[Prog]

after some more games, i really think the mines are a bit too strong.

my suggestion: change their damage to 250 or 260 per level, but slightly reduce the cooldown and mana cost.

this would lead to more mines and bigger minefields, but the single mine would be less lethal than it is now.

Finally i have to agree, there is no way adepting to a demolisher + Multi Bow really well. Your Suggestion sounds quite good to me, but i'm not sure if this is enough (currently i think its not, 2 lvl 2 mines + artillery shot kills a light tank, with less cooldown this won't change too much). In my opinion this wouldn't change anything on lanes (where the demo is more lethal than in mid).