Remove the 1% extra HP every level? [restarted again]

[horselance]

When you play with tinker, lvl2 Helli or Light Tank rocket kills you in one shot too. Or demo artillery shot kills you in lvl1. This doesnt mean that tinker must grow in hp per level to endure rockets... This means you need a new tank or hull...

Now same will happen to helli-HT challenge. You will need a hull if you want to play with helli therefore.

[Prog]

getting a second bombardment rockets and beeing unable to purchase an iron hull when someone can get a heavy tank is the mistake thats brings up this situation.

it means that you farmed ~2000 in a time your oponnent farmed more than 4500. you should be able to recognize he gets money as hell and dont play a weapon only strat.

Seems like you don't understand my point, so i'll try to be more precise:

You play Heli with 2 Bombardings (both upgraded) and save for an air ship (You got 3000 Gold allready saved [8500 gold]) and your enemy got a Heavy lvl 7 with multi bow [6600 Gold]. Nowadays its quite easy to do this, becouse you stay out of your enemys range and a Heavy won't kill you with his lvl 3 rocket. If you got no hp bonus this changes dramatically, becouse now you must get a hull, which means you spend at least 1250 Gold and will change to air ship quite late. This makes playing long range much harder, becouse you will have to adept your whole strategy to the new hp of your tank. That's an example of what i meant with changing balance and we can't predict certainly how it will change and how to fix possible imbalances created by the hp issue.

Now same will happen to helli-HT challenge. You will need a hull if you want to play with helli therefore

Exactly you will need a hull now. In my opinion a huge balance change, becoues people who creeped rather bad now will have to get a hull, which makes them get another tank later, which means that their disadvantage will be bigger - maybe to big to compensate by better play in mid-late game.

[horselance]

Prog wrote :
which makes them get another tank later, which means that their disadvantage will be bigger - maybe to big to compensate by better play in mid-late game.

What we started to argue this topic was already this.
A heavy sized tank gets too much hp bonus from 2% and is much stronger than a Hull+light sized tank. This makes buying weapons and hulls useless..
But now our HT will have 5500 HP instead of ~6600 hp around lvl10. If you get a Steel hull and upg it you can even challenge him with your firepower therefore... Because you will have 4k HP and more firepower...

[Exodus]

Nearly 75% want to change something. And the complete removal of the extra HP even got the most votes, but I think there were some convincing comments, that there should at least some growth. So I'll lower the extra HP to 1% per level in the next version.
Then we will see how much this will really change the gameplay, imo its kind of tiring to discuss such a change over and over again without practical experience.

The new version is nearly finished, only some small things left.

[Althend]

I suggest we remove completely the percentage. Currently it's still a run to high level tanks. The difference between inferno and titan is near 12000 hp, it is really huge since the gold difference is just 7000... It would make stop the imba combo of demon tanks> Actually i get bored to see this tank in all pro games...
The percentage, even reduced, still push people to aim high hp tanks...

[LuckyD0g]

Oh no again.
If it is still imba that what about increasing the tanks costs.
Increasing the cost using cost formila of gold hulls.

Eg:
Tank name Cost Cost Increases New Cost
Light Tank 800 313 1113
Air Ship 4500 1125 5625
Infernal-Robot 15000 4688 19688
Titan 25000 7813 32813

[TKF]

I think 1% is still way to much. I vote to remove it.

[Althend]

Oh no again.
If it is still imba that what about increasing the tanks costs.

Because all the tank's prices are nicely balanced at level 1 of the tank and the 1 percent destroy all the balance.

[Prog]

I really don't like the idea removing it, becouse it would destroy quite a lot of balance work and the hp increase is defenitly nothing imbalanced. (Btw: The demon tanks aren't played becouse of the hp bonus, rather becouse of the stun.)

Keep in mind which effects will occur without the hp bonus:
*Single target stun spells will become stronger (Rocket, Lava shot)
*Long range weapons (especially with low rate of fire) will become far stronger
*Skilldamage get higher in comparison to hp, means you'll be more easily killed by drones, rocket+ulti combos, etc.
*As the skilldamage of high cost tanks is higher and the indirect damage boost of skills in % will have more effect on them, the high cost tanks won't get weaker (Having mass demon tanks will even increase strength)
*The low hp tanks (scout, light, heli, (tinker)) will die (without hulls) to demolisher mines lvl 3 mines instantly, no need to aim the artillery shot any more.
*Passiv abilities reducing the damage will become weaker.
*Passiv ability increasing the hp from sky fortress will become stronger
*Teleport (or jump) + Stun and shortrange weapons will become stronger
[...]

I think 1% is not enough, increase it to 2% : )

[DerSatan]

i dont think the percentage HP increase is the reason why the demon tank is played so much.

i find that really annoying too, about 75% of the players in an average game take the demon tank. so boring.


i think its the armor level requirements. they should apply for every tank over 3k gold or for no one.



also his lava shot is of course damn good. much damage, huge range, very long stun, easy to use. IMO the best ability in BT. though, his other abilies arent that good, maybe some balancing could be done here (nerf lava shot, buff other abilities). i know that has been done recently, but i dont think it was enough.

[horselance]

I think it is now good to be 1%. Demon's favorit reason is 2.5 seconds of long range stun + 3500 damage with ultimate at lvl 13. And it is last tank before Armor requiste.

Making all tanks above 3k will make game monotone. I hate to see demon all around but if there is a last requistion for demon can be applied. Still makes game monotone.

Other solution can be Level requirement instead of armor requirement.

[RedNova]

Another take, let's propose something that does it backwards:

Why not a fixed HP gain per lvl, per tank? This upgrade could be bigger (in %) for earlier tanks (thus making them more of an option if you level up) and less for later tanks, because later tanks usually have more levels. Remember, this is in opposition of a flat % upgrade, which I did not calculate if it was composite, and blatantly favors later tanks.

Example:
Ligth tank: 1000 start, +50 per level (equals to a 5% increase). At lvl 10 (which is a near final time to keep that tank), it,s HP should be 1500.
Thunder tank: 4000 start, +100 per level (equals to 2.5% increase). At lvl 17 (by which time you SHOULD get another tank in most games), that means 5700 HP.
Demon tank: 10000 HP start, +200 per level (equals to 2% increase). At lvl 20 (most games should be over by now), the total HP is 14000.

Like you see, the increase in linear for the tank, but the upgrade (in)effeciency is lesser among tank types, going down the costlier the tank. This is because you will NOT use the benefit of more levels with earlier tanks, thus you should get a bigger bonus. On the other hand, it should not be THAT powerful because the game is geared toward getting new chassis at (nearly) fixed intervals during the game.

This is a modeled after an exponent function. The main problem I see with it is the situations where getting a 3-4 level advantage early game would create a big hurdles for players, whereas the level gain is way slower near the end of the game. But it would counterbalance the (much often) strategy of hoarding cash to quickly upgrade to a tier 2 tank (thunder and above). It is still an huge advantage, but they would NOT be able to one-shot kill or as easly dominate weaker tanks, especially if those have a level advantage.

To better illustrate:

----% of upgrading-------/------------Tank base cost

8%-|--*
----|
7%-|---*
----|
6% |
----|
5%-|-----*
----|
4%-|
----|----------*
3%-|
----|------------------*
2%-|--------------------------------*
----|-------------------------------------------------*
1%-|---------------------------------------------------------------------*
----|________________________________________________
----0......1K....2K....3K....4K....5K....6K....7K....8K....9K....10K....10k +

It should be about 0.5 to 0.75 for a lvl 25 tank (such as infernal and titan).
Mathematically, a 0 cost tank (Tinker thus) should get an infinite HP boost, not quite real, but a few tanks, mostly Tinker and Exploder, could go on with a ZERO HP upgrade per level, because of their radically different approach to hp. This also applies to scout, to a lesser degree (which should get somewehere like a 8% increase).

The rest is up to common sense and a good excel sheet. Every value will be inputed by hand anyway in the map.

Well, you get the point. (And damn that was hard to format this table into a post!!!!!)

I did vote "yes". Does it shows :-)

PS: YEAH! 100th post!

[ycoseth]

The other reason tanks are a better choice is because of the armor. Hulls add HP but not armor, making buying a new tank a better upgrade even before incorporating the better skills.

I really like the scaling % HP boosts, anything to make little tanks viable longer is good to me. As is, I still feel like once the first HT or GT hits the board, anyone left in a smaller tank (with no money to upgrade) is automatically boned and becomes an easy target. Even a LT/Iron Hull is vulnerable since I single rocket or hammer hit takes 1/3-1/2 HP and stuns them.

[RedNova]

Sorry to busrt your bubble Ycoseth, but armor is absolutely irrelevant against players because all weapons and skills are spell based damage which totally bypass armor reduction. This as been confirmed on a few threads by the map makers. Armor does have an effect, but against non-spell damage, which is anything creeps use. Therefore, a 100 damage weapon will do 100 damage on a tinker with zero armor and 100 on a 25-armor titan.

As such, hulls on weaker tanks became a lot more attractive when I learned this.

[GooglyBoogly]

Not just creeps. Summons too.

You will be glad you upgraded your tank if there is a ghost tank/guard running around.

[RedNova]

Indeed, I forgot about that one. Thanks for pointing this out. Summons tend to do huge amount of damage, so this is quite important. As a matter of fact, Heavy tank damage reduction counts against that as well, but not against weapons damage.

[bangyouredead]

Personally, I liked it when it was 2% per level and maybe i would up that to 2.5-3%. Yes, good tanks are surely worth more than good weapons, but that's how it should be. You can't own in a light tank just because you have great weapons. Also, as people level up they get more hp, and so this will encourage leveling up and show the skill of players who can level quickly. Take away the hp increase and, besides abilities, leveling wont mean anything...

[TKF]

ehem, this topic is about removing the hp increase, not increasing it again. That will never happen. Most likely it will stay at 1%.

[bangyouredead]

Well excuse me, I say 10% hp per level. Final offer!

[k-bones]

duh, i'm against rednova unless you remove scout regen, he always saves that bit of hp when you chase the bastard down after stun... and he always gets more xp, thanks too regen too.