THE MINES!! To strong, good enough or to weak?

[Tribulation]

One always has to keep in mind that a demolisher can hardly push as good as a tank/heli with a stronger weapon, something's wrong if you let a demolisher push you back to your base, the wave skill is not imba and can't make up the lack of firepower a demolisher naturally has. Mines are predominantly used in a defensive manner, i.e. the enemy you want to kill has to react to your action (by advancing and triggering the mine), whereas a normal attack (using a skill or advancing to get your weapons in range) does not require the enemy's reaction.

I was not talking about a radar, but about wards, which do not cost as much, but can save your life easily, and you know where the mines are even after the ward's timed life ends, because you can memorize where they are (and we're talking about a couple of mines only, 5-10 at the most, no demo could plant more by the time you have a chance to get a ward), and you can see where the demo goes, by applying the imaginary line. Think about it this way: you spend some gold, let's say 200-300, the price for wards, but the player with the demo in turn does not gain any money from killing you, and loses money because he can creep less efficiently if you keep him at bay. Also: if the demo cannot use his mining ability while you have wards, there's no reason why you couldn't push normally, limiting him to an area around his cp; and he would lose the opportunity to gain the maximum from his mining-skill, because basically every second that the mining skill is not used (between the cooldowns) is wasted, you gain nothing from having the skill ready but not using it. This is due to the fact that the demo has to put a couple of mines together on a single spot if he wants to instantly kill a light tank (assuming full hp, which of course is the player's responsibility, you have to ensure you're at full hp most of the time when facing a demo).

There's no reason to nerf mines, because it would be a boost for heli: the heli already has the ability to fly over trees and other terrain in which no mines can be put, that is advantage enough, triggering mines by ground units only would give the heli a second advantage, and mines would become useless for defending cps, just let a heli or another flying unit conquer it. Decreasing the mines' damage would make it even harder to pile up enough mines to kill somebody, the requirement of at least 100 units of range between two mines is enough. Advancing carefully gives players a good chance of stopping before driving into the second or third mine, and you can get more hp before the demo's mines become strong enough to kill with a single one. Limited life would weaken demo too much, as mines of course are his key skill to get player kills, his artillery shot is nice, but much harder to use (and hence to dodge by enemies) than rocket; and tinkers starting with a weapon instead of a hull just have to deal with the fact that they die if hit once. The ability to kill a tinker with one shot is balanced since artillery is not as easy to use as rocket, which does not kill with one shot.

[TKF]

Poll ended at 13 Dec 2007, 17:22

• Yes, the mines does to much damage, they should be nerfed
  10% [1]
  
  It's perfect! It doesn't need to be changed
  70% [7]
  
  LOL NO, THEY NEED TEH MORE POWAH!
  20% [2]

Total of 10 votes.

Majority did like the mines as they are back then.



___________

I'm now reopening and resetting votes about mines balance. You can revote.

[Batto]

I agree with satan and tribulation, nothing to change there. Only reason ppl want to change this is so that their light tank+2*basic magic isnt working anymore as they are used to. Just change lane till you can buy your beloved heavy tank (or any other tank of you choice ofcourse) then sweep the mines one by one.

Or try to be really teamplaying, and go for the radar and defuser thing. They did that against me one time where i was demo with weapons and medium (dont know the name now, the ones for 5000 gold) mines. However i was feeding (on them) like hell before that, they got to turn it around because of that teamplay. One took the radar and defuser while he got guarded buy 2 of his teammates.

At this moment in btanks, there is a counter to anything imho.

Oh and about the tinkers being killed with one shot: yes it is balanced and even more, if you are a good tinker, you are even able to dodge by just having teleport lv 1 ability. Just on a sidenote.

[TKF]

Choosing between defuser and iron hull, I rather pick iron hull against demolisher. Increased your chances of surving annoying demolisher mines. However I have to agree that it is difficult to play against multiple demolishers due the the psychological fear factor the mines create and forces a good player to play more defensive to avoid the mines. Keep in mind that the mines are HERO only ability (Exploding mines does of course damage structures and creeps)!

I consider buying defuse kit, if enemies buys heavy or huge mines. I'm not buying it against demolisher.

I've seen late games, where the enemy suddenly goes tinker and buy huge mines. They are quite effective, and might even rival infernals if he put enough mines. Also the mines becomes stronger as the game continues. The huge mines can do 9000 damage with a team weapon level of 30! That's a lot. 50 sec cooldown on mines... Lets say you can plant 1 mine each minute. That's a lot of stored damage into the battle field! 90000 damage in 10 min. (late game) :O hock:
Yep it's shocking when you do the math and calculate the firepower you throw in the ground. But that not certain if the mines was alone for 10 min in late games, cuz the enemy probably attack your base 30-50 times, they trigger the mines one by on, and perhaps 1-2 kills -/+.


I think the mine defuser has a bit cooldown. But it has a small AOE defuse and is able to defuse at least 2 mines as the opponent can plant 1 mine. If he got 2 different mines and spreads them. You can barely keep up, and the chance for teammates to get hurt is also present.


But I do agree demolisher mines is lethal against light tanks. Also for heli as well if he moves on them. But iron hull works well, but it delays your purchase of heavt/air ship or similar expensive tanks. The mines also now does become 3% stronger every 5 min + every attack upgrade, so there's that factor as well!

[Frechheit]

I agree with satan and tribulation, nothing to change there. Only reason ppl want to change this is so that their light tank+2*basic magic isnt working anymore as they are used to. Just change lane till you can buy your beloved heavy tank (or any other tank of you choice ofcourse) then sweep the mines one by one.

Or try to be really teamplaying, and go for the radar and defuser thing. They did that against me one time where i was demo with weapons and medium (dont know the name now, the ones for 5000 gold) mines. However i was feeding (on them) like hell before that, they got to turn it around because of that teamplay. One took the radar and defuser while he got guarded buy 2 of his teammates.

At this moment in btanks, there is a counter to anything imho.

Oh and about the tinkers being killed with one shot: yes it is balanced and even more, if you are a good tinker, you are even able to dodge by just having teleport lv 1 ability. Just on a sidenote.

Have you ever been playing a Pro Game? That means 5vs5 only pros. Change the lane is crap..cause than u have for example 4 in mid against 3 mid = less creeps + less xp.

Radar and Defuser are waste of money. When u buy Radar the enemy has the advantage of 1000 gold..

And u dont understand u cant wait until getting heavy cause u cant creep(cause mines cant go forward) normal i suppose i should make replays with guys..already was playing with horselance 2 games on lane 1v1 with demo.
At the end he agrees that light tank stand no chance against demo.

[Batto]

Well, i guess i am just not pro enough to be able to judge this issue then.

[Tribulation]

I have gone to some lengths to explain why you should be able to creep against demolisher, see my post above.

Even if you were right: "pro" games make up a negligible amount of all games, if all "pros" were so convinced that demo is absolutely imba, they'd all either pick demo all the time or ban it (via Gentlemen's Agreement) in "pro" games, problem solved. Thus, nerfing it just because a tiny minority (or even fractions thereof) believe it's necessary seems to be a little over the top, don't you think?

[horselance]

Tribulation wrote:
ban it (via Gentlemen's Agreement) in "pro" games

We were doing that for Infernal before 8.36, but we try to make a permanent balance/agreement.

Edit : Also it dont need to be changed until most ppl say it is too strong...

[Frechheit]

Really i must say i have no problems with demolisher. I only think and know thats its imbalanced but okay when people doesnt want to change then dont change

[Althend]

I think that demolisher is quit too powerfull against all tank costing less than 3000.
Most of the time, a large amount of players take the demolisher with de the bow. They are able to creep easily during the 10 first minutes and are able to kill some players with 2 mines... And nobody will take a radar or defuse kit at beginning.

The ward cost money and seeing 20 mines around doesn't really help you since mines are hard to see (even with using the button "alt")

I really think mines should be nerfed or someway corrected.


Another important things is that the "demolisher + bow" gaming way make people run away of the game.
It is harrassing and reduce the fun.
How would a noob have fun by being killed by mines all the time?
They won't see the real fun of the game, it became a "try to dodge the mines" game...
It is a pure way to make new players leave.

(everyone has been a newbie. I probably would not playing this game all the time if the few first time i play this game, all players play mines all the time...)


And i am not a "lighttank + 2 magic" player... I just think that currently seeing all players playing demo+bow really boring.
Since getting enough money to have middle tank is most of the time more important than getting a cp (the advantage of having cp is too low to motivate people...), it become more a "i try to kill many creep to get many kill, the fastest possible in order to get higher tank" game. Demo + bow is symptomatic of the way the game is currently. It is just my feeling...

[Tribulation]

I still don't see a problem, reasons given above.

Beginners could be equally discouraged from playing by exploders (they can be really annoying), better players with long range weapons (not a chance to even damage them), tower-building Tinkers farming like hell (equally untouchable), etc.

[DerSatan]

I just think that currently seeing all players playing demo+bow really boring.

there are really many demo+bow players out there, many times im one of them, since its a really strong tactic. but i won't claim that the demolisher is too strong.

i rather think its the bow. not too easy for me to say this since i play it 90% ( demo or antigrav), but he is really strong, much stronger than basic magic on a vehicle that got some hitpoints.

the demolishers disadvtantage was (some version ago) that he can only spend 1100 for a weapon, and therefore earns less money and experience than other players.

i dunno... just a feeling it is... not saying imba... but stronger

[horselance]

Demo is a really strong tank. 2 reasons: double start hp, and mines...
Mines are really strong and that force upgrades also increase the damage...
I played a game few days ago, i was ruling the game far far good. But i was still dying to those stupid mines... They cause insane damage after a while.
Probably i was taking ~8k damage by huge ones, ~5k from heavy ones, more than 2k from basic ones...when step 3 or 4 of them you are dead even with infernal... And the guy can place 4 of them (was still demo) per interval. You can remotely destroy 2 of them but he places more then you destroy... After a while all CPs become minefields that is impossible to sweep all of them. (and also no need to talk about Remote defuse pack invisible detection bug...)

I love demo because it is imba:) Because mines are imba...

[DerSatan]

hmm demo costs more than twice the light tanks cost, but the mines do less than twice the damage of a rocket, they also dont stun and are hard to time (you dont know when an enemy will step on them).

their only advantage is that you can have several mines planted at one time. but if you run through 3-4 mines without stopping before, or you just didnt know where he put these minefields, lets say... hmm... you dont play well against minelayer?

[horselance]

At lvl 7 you cause as much damage as light tanks hp. Isnt it enough? And HT cost 7 times light tank but dont cause 7 times rocket damage nor stun.
At startup you force your enemy to buy a hull. Or they die by 1 mine. And i think it is not so possible to get a HT before you get level7. And by forcing your enemy to buy a hull, you get a Better tank much earlier than him (HT or goblin or Sky or even Hell Tank before he can buy a HT)... Because a iron hull will not even be enough to survive because your mines will cause more than 1300 damage at lvl 10... And when you step a mine then you must return to base to repair and lose time and money...

You cannot send a rocket all the time but he can put a mine anywhere all the time... And you also dont need to be there to cause damage, but rocket needs to be there... Sometimes i put mines to mid and then go to lanes and kill guys on lane and suddenly it says Double Kill!! because your mines work out there on mid too:)

LVL3 HT rocket cant kill a light tank but a LVL3 mine can kill... Is it normal?

[Althend]

I still don't see a problem, reasons given above.

Beginners could be equally discouraged from playing by exploders (they can be really annoying), better players with long range weapons (not a chance to even damage them), tower-building Tinkers farming like hell (equally untouchable), etc.

The ship with long range has a lot of weakness. Tinkers also.
Exploder suck most of the time and at begining, he feed same amount of money comapring to the other tanks.
You are talking about a real goodgame where the tinker is always untouchable, exploder does always right and the ship always dodge people.
But for the demo and the bow, there is no need for great skill.. (i do not say that if you play that , you suck but creeping without pushing a use mines on some place doesn't require a lot of skills...) That's why a large amount of players do that cause it s stronger and easy.

hmm demo costs more than twice the light tanks cost, but the mines do less than twice the damage of a rocket, they also dont stun .and are hard to time (you dont know when an enemy will step on them).

their only advantage is that you can have several mines planted at one time. but if you run through 3-4 mines without stopping before, or you just didnt know where he put these minefields, lets say... hmm... you dont play well against minelayer?

The demo cost twice, he has twice hp, mine does near twice damage...
People who think that the demo+bow tech sucks are not always people who die from them...

you dont play well against minelayer?

Inf is imba cause we don't play weel against minelayer?
A 10000hp tank at 1000 gold is imba because we don't play well against it?
It is not a question of playing well against x or y. It is about seeing troubesom things ingame and reporting it.
If you disagree, it is ok, everyone has his opinion and i respect that.

But plz stop childish things as "You say that because you suck against this"... I really don't think it is the appopriate way to talk on the forum... (where most of the time members are not noob but players who play a lot and really like it...)

[DerSatan]

i didnt say "you suck at this", and it wasnt meant that way. sorry if you understood it wrong.

but remeber we were talking about a situation, where a high-level demolisher, with bought mines, heavy mines and huge mines (overall mine cost: 15k) plays against an infernal.

so these two tanks have comparable value, and if the infernal cant get it done... it doesnt mean the demolisher is imba, and i think he can get it done without any super-pro moves or luck.

and the mines... they do a lot of damage, sure... but they did cost 15k gold, and you can counter them with defuse pack... even if he lays more mines than you can defuse, you can concentrate on defusing the huge and heavy mines and just trigger the other ones by walking over it. it wont kill you, unless you only show up at the CP the demolisher is defending every 5 minutes.

[horselance]

Well in fact i am not against item mines. Because they cost a lot money. And cause a lot damage. And can be countered (after that defuse pack bug solved, it will be better:). But that item was bugged and it is disturbing to drop the item and repack and find the biggest mines and blow as much biggest mines as you can... Also there are enemies you fighting with and need some consentration to find big mines and also you must get really near them... Really disturbing...

Worst thing is; mines dont cause friendly fire... I think they must cause damage to allies too. Explosives are causing firendly fire... Why mines dont?

And my problem is about demo's mines... They are free... And cause too much damage... They are as good as 2500g mines and demo cost only 1900g... Maybe lvl1 and lvl2 mines are weaker than other abilities because they cause random non-lethal damage. But after lvl3 it is a killer... at lvl 5 it causes near 2k damage with force upgrades... 2 mines kill a Zeppelin... Which abilty can cause such damage? more than lavashot.... nearly as goblin hammer....

[Frechheit]

Mines are too strong.

I play everyday intern pro games and its always the situation of 2 or more demolishers in the mid.

Demo+ Multi Bow is just too imba.

U can creep like hell and u have a lot of hp. Moreover u can kill easy with the mines.

In Addition to that u cant counter demolisher. Yeah right u can buy detector wow and then u lose 1k-2k gold only to see the mines great.
And the enemy(demo) has then the advantage of 1-2k gold.

Its really annoying for a lot of players that u must play against mines and cant do anything about it.

And when its hard for people with skill i dont want to know the situation for rookies.

[Prog]

Mines are too strong.

I play everyday intern pro games and its always the situation of 2 or more demolishers in the mid.

Demo+ Multi Bow is just too imba.

U can creep like hell and u have a lot of hp. Moreover u can kill easy with the mines.

In Addition to that u cant counter demolisher. Yeah right u can buy detector wow and then u lose 1k-2k gold only to see the mines great.
And the enemy(demo) has then the advantage of 1-2k gold.

Its really annoying for a lot of players that u must play against mines and cant do anything about it.

And when its hard for people with skill i dont want to know the situation for rookies.

I have to agree finally, even tho i emphasized that Demo + Multi Bow is not too strong up to now. As i mostly played in the same games as Frechheit it was quite easy to see the change from games with 1 or 2 demolishers each side, to games with 3-4 demolishers each side, which is rather unsatisfying. It's not the way that you can't win without a demolisher, or that you have completly no chance against them with heli or light tank, but we didn't find the correct way adapting to it right now (if their is any). But i'd like to emphasize that it would be wrong to say Demolisher + Multi Bow is imba and change something instantly. Like in every strategy game i know game style and balance changes huge in time, when new strategies become popular and the best counter has to be found. For example in normal wc3 mass talons seemed to be totally imba and not able to be countered from orc few months ago, but nowadays the good orc players found a way adapting by changing their strategy and gamestyle. In my opinion we all should try to find the best counter a bit longer and then review the task of Demolisher + Multi Bow again.