Varying Weapon Types

[Game Hunter]

Right now, most of the weapons do the same sort of thing. Your buying options are typically going to be whether or not you want a high range, a high damage, or a high rate of fire. I believe there should be more of the "specialized" weapons that hurt significantly more (except in the case of vehicle-only weapons) but only target a specific type of unit. An alternative to this would be to have more weapons that can change modes (like Normal/Building and Normal/Air) where it can switch to hitting only creeps or vehicles.

For instance, there's only one creep-only weapon right now: Frost Magic. If I recall, it was changed recently to affect only creeps, but I don't think it's really strong enough for its cost to be that effective. In addition, we should try to add some more kinds of creep-only attacks: Mini-Laser (it'd be a slower attack than most lasers, more like a beam), Shrapnel, Cluster Pack. Some of them could even produce splash damage to other creeps (and only creeps if possible) to make them particularly useful against hordes. The biggest advantage the game plays out is a Trader-type who upgrades the units with remarkable speed, maybe placing a Factory or two; creep-only attacks would balance out the fight at the risk of having less to kill the attacker-type vehicles.

The other kind of weapon idea I had in mind was a few other weapons that move like Swarm Rockets do: slowly and deceptively. A lot of people choosing Swarm Rockets these days, and not just for the nice range, but because the damage doesn't affect the enemy immediately and acts as a kind of fade-attack. I'd say we should have the damage of this kind of attack slightly reduced (by 5% or something) and add a few more weapons like it. Death's Curse was sort-of slow, but the range made it negligible anyway. Perhaps weapons like Heat-Seeking Missiles or Parasite Bombs could work.

There are probably other types we can consider adding (more weapon modes) but here's a starter for the ideas.

[Game Hunter]

Sorry for double-posting, but I have a new idea and just editing the post would have it overlooked and un-bumped.

Something I'd like to see in terms of specialty are more air-to-ground, ground-to-air, and (although in fewer quantities) air-to-air and ground-to-ground. Bombs/Flak are, at this point, the only weapons to do this, and even then it's against vehicles of that kind. While this makes sense for air, there are a lot of things to hit on the ground, and despite the fact that they'll hurt a little more, you can swap tanks to completely avoid them. Maybe have a Aircraft Carrier weapon that attacks only from air to air, and a Mini-'Sploder that goes ground-to-ground. Name-wise I'm not so good on these, but just considering these types (and the ones in the previous post) is good enough for me.

Please discuss!

[TKF]

Change Weapon Modes




Personally I don't like frost magic, cuz it cannot attack vehicles, and cannot change weapon mode either, so it's useless against enemy player vehicles. Some newbies does buy this weapon, without knowing this weapon CANNOT attack enemy tanks. I think this weapon should do slightly more damage against the creeps, and be able to change it to normal mode, so you can, also use it agains player vehicles.



Perhaps add a change weapon mode to Energy Torpedo after you have upgraded it, to attack player vehicles only, at the cost of some damage. I would liked that. When it is switched to Vehicle only mode, it does same damage as unupgraded energy torpedo, so it would be balanced in comparison to death magic, which also targets vehicles only at 1300 range. But it could prove lethal to only trace player vehicles, still with reduced damage. But you must have upgraded the weapon in order to gain access to change weapon mode feature, like in the example im suggesting here:


Energy Torpedo (Normal) (3800)


Dmg: 650 --- Cooldown: 3,33sec. --- Range: 1300 --- DPS: 195

Change weapon mode: Vehicle only. Penalty damage -172

->

Energy Torpedo (Vehicle Only) (3800)

Dmg: 478 --- Cooldown: 3,33sec. --- Range: 1300 --- DPS:144

Change weapon mode: Normal. Bonus damage +172


Air Only Weapons



I would also like that would be done to the grenade laucher, so it becomes slightly more powerful, and can switch attack modes after they have been upgraded. It's barely stronger that upgraded basic magic (1666). The grenade laucher costs (1750). If you add 500-750 gold upgrade, the air mode with the more valuable grenade launcher would do more damage. Thus the disadvantage is that you have to upgrade it before you can change it to Air Only, but I think it's worth it.



You have also AA gun, but I dislike it due to it very short range of 700. I personally think it should have upgrade bonus range instead of damge when you upgrade it. Mostly cuz air units is faster than ground tanks and can keep distance with their 900-1300 range weapons. It's more risky to go close of a 1000 range AA gun enemy, than a 700 range. But the disadvantage is high upgrade cost (2400-2500) for giving it 300+ range






_________________

TKF presents: Cheap useless garbage at start :!:

:shock: Yay here I come with Repair Kit as a tinker.... ROFL!

That's why you should add coming soon... (4 min) for such idiot 3000<items as siege pack, radar, ice cannon, repair kit, and similar items; YES EVEN reinforcements (yes it exists "¤%@}§" that is capable to buy 6 reinforcements at start :mrgreen: OOooohh I'm gonna own them with my army :mrgreen:) Make a way so it's impossible to buymeaningless items at start

[Exodus]

Maybe we can add/change some weapons after the new version is released. Until then you may want to make some clear concepts on how to change an existing weapon (just like TKF did) or for new weapons.

Btw, it is possible to add effects like splash, slow or chain-lightning etc, but for that you need trigger which may cause even more lags and thatswhy we most likely won't add those effects to the game. Another reason would be thats its fairly hard to balance.

[SirJoghurt]

i didn't read all ^^

but, what about for a new "Shop" for such Special Weapons ?

it could be aviable, after Force has been uped to level 10 for example..

[psycho_dmr]

hm, i dont think that you can win a game with theses weapons, there is no need for them because it is always better to get a weapon that can attack all as a weapon that only can attack creeps/heroes/buildings... one reason for that is that those waepons cant be upgraded atm.

to get these weapons (creeps only) balanced and useful, it have to do tripple damage then normal weapons, if you have e.g. a frost magic, then you have to kill the enemy faster with that (creep only) weapon as you could kill him with a normal weapon for 6000gold (light fantastic for example).

so i dont know if the weapon needs to do doulbe or tripple damage, but it has to take much more then normal weapons...

building only weapons are imho completely useless, there is the same problem... if there is no enemy in rage then all weapons attack buildings, if not u need the power for that hero, not this stupid tower/fac (150Gold against 500-1000...)
so if these weapons should get useful all other weapons shouldn't can attack buildings (like 1300rage weapons already do). then these building only weapons get useful.


blub, englisch um halb sechs morgens is ne shice idee, ich hoffe das is zu verstehn xD

[TKF]

Well I was suggesting changes to existing weapons, not new weapons. And making AOE damage on phönix fire weapon creates lagg, I even experimented with that only in GUI.

building only weapons are imho completely useless,...

Well I think when you change it to normal mode, those weapons is as good as equivalent normal weapon of same value. But I extremely rarely buy these weapons. Also I never buy frost magic, since I find it slow killing the creeps.

[Bob666]

anti-building weapons can be used sometimes, against tinker towers, because they dont attack creeps...
and the AA-gun is pretty fair i think, because it attacks half of the enemies and deals the doubled damage... if you could carray both anti air and anti ground weapons at the same time, you would fight a single ground unit normally, a single air unit normally, but if you have one ground an one air as an enemy, then you deal x2 damage...
but i'd like to see other weapons, too... more anti air / anti ground / anti creep / anti tank weapons... perhaps even more of those special weapons than normal weapons, and they should deal more damage then... (except for anti-tank weapons)
BUT: makes the game more complicated

[TKF]

Well, the existing weapon shops is filled. So I suggested some additional functions to existing weapons, to add a greater variety to the gameplay.

Well the AA-Gun (6000) target only flying vehicle only units, with 700 range. I've seen many encounters where many keeps safe distance due to the deadlyness of the AA-gun, and the Air tanks do have the speed skill, so it's faster than the ground tanks and can control combat better using the highest speed. I'm fine that the bombs have only 700 range, cuz air tanks can catch up with the slower ground tanks, so they can get in close range if they want to.

___



Well the artillery feels like a anti ground weapon, so it's alternative attack mode could perhaps be ground only. The bombs (6000) at mid shop does only target ground, player vehicles, so it doesn't exist weapons that target the units on the ground including creeps and structures. That is a missing weapon mode in battle tanks. Well I feel this weapon can also suit for this role.

___

But I wouldn't mind that you add change weapon modes to some of the existing upgraded weapons, so they becomes more flexible. Grenade laucher is a weapon that contain feature, which can be changed to target air units only.

[Game Hunter]

Well if you want some specific examples, I can give you some ideas for existing weapons:


Cost: 6750
D: 75 ---CD:0,1sec.--R:600---DPS:750---UC:1500---BD:+17---

I suggest that the upgrade be increased in cost (to whatever amount based on your game calculations for extra damage vs. creep mode) so that it can swap modes.

Flamer (Creep)
D: 120 -- CD: .1 -- R: 600 -- DPS: 1200 -- CWM: Normal -- BD: -28

I feel that the Flamer is often underused due to the Laser, as most people prefer having an upgrade that leads to high range. This suggestion turns Flamer into a very powerful creeper, capable of literally mowing down large waves. More often than not, I'd sacrifice range for DPS when it comes to most, if not all creeps (player-controlled creeps wouldn't kill you THAT fast anyway). Increase the damage if you want to, but it sounds very worthy of 1200 DPS given the cost.


Cost: 5000

D: 667 ---CD:2,1sec.--R:1050---DPS:318---UC:2000---BC:-0,6sec---

Another underused weapon in my eyes, particularly because most people who want that kind of range would choose a 1300-range one to kill off players, and building-only attacks are far more appropriate, as they don't get distracted with their slow cooldown. Would it be possible to make this weapon have a "corpse explosion" effect placed on an enemy who has been hit such that, if that enemy dies after struck, it causes AoE damage? This would be included in the upgrade costs, and I think this wouldn't lag horribly (it wouldn't chain, and the attack's very slow). Maybe add an extra 1k, or make it a mode that's all non-buildings (essentially a heat-seeking shot).

We probably can't do Air-Air or Ground-Ground, as a player could get both and have a much easier time in close battles (like CP-porting).

I'm wondering: do you have a specific calculation you do when determining the cost of a weapon based on range? I've noticed based on a few weapons of the SAME range that 1 damage equals 10 gold (Psycho Laser vs. Frost Laser is a perfect example). Does the same apply to range/cost? If that was the case we could have modes that sacrifice DPS at the cost of range, or vice versa:


Cost: 6000

D: 463 ---CD1,1sec.--R:950---DPS:421---UC:1333---BC:-0,2sec.---

Basically I see another underused weapon: Light Fantastic's sitting right there as the same weapon, but basically sacrificing some range for huge-shot attacks, and two of them! Supposing we could have a range/DPS relation, I would hope we could make this weapon a little more worth it.

Plasma Fragments (Low-Range) (also assuming the upgrade)
D: 463 -- CD: 0.6 -- R: 700(?) -- DPS: 772 -- CWM: Normal -- BC: +.3

Now we can see it used in situations where you CAN get close to a building, or a bunch of creeps, and mow it/them down faster. When vehicles come by, switch back and keep your distance as necessary. Now you have a weapon capable of Light Fantastic's powerful shot (smaller range) but also create a safety net. We can increase the upgrade cost if necessary, given a greater variety when compared to other weapons.

Let me know if you want some details for entirely new weapons. As SirJoghurt said, it's quite possible to have a shop that requires the team to upgrade the troops first (and we can place old weapons in there as well, so it's premium-only): that is, if it's possible to keep a shop unusable until certain conditions are met.

[TKF]

Well I wonder if some of these weapon suggestion would be implemented?

[psycho_dmr]

Maybe we can add/change some weapons after the new version is released. Until then you may want to make some clear concepts on how to change an existing weapon (just like TKF did) or for new weapons.

[TKF]

additional weapon mode ideas to some existing upgraded weapons...




Basic Cannon (Normal) (2500)

Normal Mode
D: 310 ---C:1,6sec.--R:860---DPS:194

Change Weapon Mode: Vehicle Only. Bonus Cooldown +0,6

->

Basic Cannon (Vehicle Only) (2500)

Vehicle Only Mode
D: 310 ---C:2,2sec.--R:860---DPS:140

Change Weapon Mode: Normal. Bonus Cooldown -0,6


____ OR ground bombing weapon


Basic Cannon (Normal) (2500)

Normal Mode
D: 310 ---C:1,6sec.--R:860---DPS:194

Change Weapon Mode: Ground Only. Bonus Cooldown -0,32

->

Basic Cannon (Ground Only) (2500)

Vehicle Only Mode
D: 310 ---C:1,28sec.--R:860---DPS:242

Change Weapon Mode: Normal. Bonus Cooldown +3,2




Fire Arrows (Normal) (4700)

D: (3x)74 ---C:0,6sec.--R:850---DPS:275

Change Weapon Mode: Creeps only. Bonus Cooldown -0,28

Fire Arrows (Creep Only) (4700)

D: (3x)74 ---C:0,32sec.--R:850---DPS:515

Change Weapon Mode: Normal. Bonus Cooldown +0,28


Or maybe this role suits better for Plasma Waves.

...

[Bob666]

but then you are not able to upgrade any of those weapons, right? i think thats not a good idea, upgrading is quite useful...

[TKF]

additional weapon mode ideas to some existing UPGRADED weapons...

These are already upgraded weapons... You can change modes after you upgraded them.

[Game Hunter]

Ideally I'd like to make weapons upgrade, and that the upgrades allow mode-swapping to occur at all (I remember devs from BTanks MG talking about it, so I'm pretty sure it's possible). Maybe it's just me, but I usually don't upgrade weapons until the cost is practically negligible or I'm out of item slots, especially with the lower weapons. It's not like I'm saying upgrading should become enforced...it's just that upgrading one weapon can be much more useful than saving and buying a second one in the case of these "special" weapons.

If Frost Magic is going to stay where it is (creep only, all the time), make it so that it slows the creep when it hits. At the range it attacks from, this could be pretty darn useful for anti-manual creep measures. The slow could be added with the upgrade or from the start, but right now I believe it to be a "weapon you choose because you don't know what it actually does" sort-of weapon. (Ideally I'd want to see frost splash, but you say that's laggy (at least the damage splash) so it's fine as a single-target.)

[Exodus]

Well, I dont want to make every upgraded weapon changeable to another mode (you know, lots of work and stuff).
I'm not quite sure, but for me it seems that if weapons, which you can upgrade and then also change to another mode, are superior to other weapons and thatswhy imba. So for example if you want a Creep-Only-Mode, the other mode should attack no Creeps.
So every mode should have a little disadvantage to balance it out (Weapons which only have a Mode-Change are a little exception, since you can't upgrade them).

I think the creep-weapons overall should get a buff, right now they do 25% more damage than a normal weapon, that bonus should be increased to 75% or even 100%.

[TKF]

hmm... there is 4 weapons which you cannot upgrade and are Mode-Change weapons. The Grenade Launcher, Rock Catapult, Burning Projectiles and Soul Stone (which is unique since it can only be switched to creep/hero mode). I rarely buy these weapons, with exception to grenade launcher which is the only cheap AA weapon, but not effective vs stronger air tanks.

I agree that creep type weapons should be buffed!

Edit_

Why not add upgrade to these?

Edit Again_

Exodus is perhaps thinking on ideas for cheap anti creep weapon, to counter creeps better, so maybe the glaive thrower seems more like a troop cutter, or the multi bow. But then these weapons will lose upgrades, but also be available from start.


Price: 1100

D: (2x)37---C:0,8sec.--R:800---DPS:93

-> Change to anti creep. Bonus cooldown -0,4 sec

D: (2x)37---C:0,4sec.--R:800---DPS:185


The upgraded multibow is 45% better, but the change mode feature is better since it does 100% more dmg vs creeps. Same can be done with glaive thrower, also with double damage.

[Exodus]

Hm, when I look at these suggestions I'd add a mode-change to the Multibow (only Creeps - normal) and Artellery (only ground - normal), both without an additional upgrade (I'm still a bit sceptical about mixing both things together).

Especially the weapons which cost around 6000 gold dont need any change in my opinion, since in that range you have the biggest choice for a new weapon and nearly everything is covered there.

Maybe I'll add a change mode to the upgraded basic cannon and fire arrows, I'm not quite sure. Oh, and btw, the Molotov Cocktail will be changed too, since nearly no one buys that weapon. It will have a price of 1500 gold and a higher range than the Glaive Cannon to add an alternative for the Anti Grav.

[TKF]

The Antigrav can only buy 1 weapon at 1500 price class, the Glaive Thrower. Adding additional weapon will give the player a choice between short range glaive thrower or long range molotov cocktail with less DPS than glaive thrower. I think it would fit nice, since the demolisher have two 1100 gold weapons. There is three 2000 price class weapons for the heli and three 2200 price class weapons for the light tank.

Nice to hear that you are considering to add new weapon modes to some of the existing weapons.