btanks balanced after about 1 hour? FUCK NO

[Henry12]

soo.... this is just like my last post (a loooong time ago^^) a pure whine post... so if you cant handle that fuck off and dnt reply in this topic unless you read all i have to say.

i love btanks.. and i play it often... in clans puplic anything. so i know how the game works on all lvls.

this game is nicely balanced, in the start atleast, but after about 1 hour or 1.5 hour, it starts to get fucked up.
all games so far that ive had above 1-1.5hour, have almost all ended the same way lately, or atleast close to it. and that is me being completly trampled over by some noob... and now you say.. omg how can that be? your soo gosu you never lose!!?
well first off, lets make it clear that to even have a game last over 1 hour you need atleast 2 good players on each team that are evenly matched (thats my experince anyways) so this game can go back and forth, taking points and losing them again... but the thing about this is that, i normaly (and no im not bragging here im being trughtfull) have over 50 kill and less than 10 deaths, most of the time way more, like a game i played just a few min ago, i ithnk my score at the 1.5 hour mark was 80-20 something... so now you ask the same thing.. omg how can i loseee??

well.. here it comes, the motherfucking new bounty... it completly fucks ALLLLLL blalance after you start to get expensive or have many kills, well then you say, but its nice, it gives the underdog a better chance... sure im all for that, but... giving the underdog a win on a silver platter is a little to extrme in my oppinion.

let me tell you how my last game went:
me and leberzirose vs antzo and some other guy, its nice game, im owning them, leber is doing fine too, but they are fighting back very bravely^^ so its a hard game even though we are owning in kills, but then they have finally saved up for that damn infernal, i had a demon at that point and leber had a frost. so natually they start to kill me a little more than they did before, cause its hard to survive against a infernal and a shredder taking you away from your facotry, no matter how feeded you are. so they start to kill me and leber... ofc we kill them too, but we get something like 500-700 bounty.. they get... here it comes... get ready.... 2.1k for me!!! and a little less for leber, but still a ridicules amount, comepared to thier own cost.
so... from there we start to lose the game... and its just going down hill faster and faster, cause when i kill them i get the puny bounty, but then they kill me its motherfukcing cristmas. suddnely they have a fucking frost lazer... at this point one of them have more weapons and gear than me!! remember im the one with the 100-30 score, hes the one with the 40-40 score or sumthing... so... from that point we just lose, ofc i still manage to kill them once in a while and get the measly 1200... but now they get 3.1k for me... so yeah. we lose. another fun fun fun fun thing, i noticed at one point i had 4 light fantastic, a ultipack and infernal, sounds nice ehh?^^ well the other guy had frost lazer 4 lazer and a ulti pack, which means hes worth AHELLUVA lot more than me.. and i still got the 1600 for him.. he got 3.2k for me, balance just got raped!

so now you say.. but that was one game and you must play like shit for not winning when you had the advangte. but as i said, they where figting back like crazy^^ and it was great fun, they but there just isnt anyways you can push against a team that upgrades and spams units like there is no tomorrow, unless your doing that yourself too, and i dnt like doing that, so i really couldnt push all that effectively (i managed to kill the first 2 base factories, but after that i never came close to thier base again)

and plz dnt think im emo enough to base this post on just one game, as ive said ive played many many games, and a few, not many, but a few, goes up over that 1 hour point, or whatever (the point when you have your infernal/frost and are saving up for weapons from the center shop), and they almost always end the same way, i get crushed because i cant push alone/or for whatever reason, so i get killed they have a little cristmas and get a lazer each time they kill me.

soo... my point is the bounty system is motherfucking fataly flawed, it screws over late game so badly, its not fun to have those 1-2 hour games anymore, because seeing someone you owned the entire game and i mean seriously dominated, suddnely be worth more than you in terms of tanks and items is just ridicules.

so unless you find someway to make this better balanced late game, i think im gona take a little break from btanks... cause right now, its just stupid, and it have been stupid for a while, but this last game just did it for me, we should have won that game, we played better, we had the most kills, we had the best tanks, but the bounty screwed us over.

so plz fix shit, so i can go back to playing my favorite game, and do something about unit pack too... its almost as ridicules as the bounty... but thats a entirely diffrent subjeckt^^

[Exodus]

What do you think about a cap for the bounty?

[SirJoghurt]

Well, Henry is right, so far..

if you/your Team made a good gAme.. like he told.. with stats about 50-10 (one or 2 Player, or something like that).If you die in the late game.. the enemy get's a bit too much money.. and your "good" work @ the beginnig is destroyed, maybe with 2 deaths, for wich the enemy gains 2x 2000 gold for example.. fast new weapon or something.... for which you did creep a lot and don'T die 1 hour ^^

[Henry12]

humm.. i dnt think cap is the right way to go... because unless you set it to something wayyyy to small the problem will still exsist, lets say you set it too... maybe 2k, the problem i talk about will still be there, cause they will just get 2k for me while ill get the... 500-1000 whatever for them, and thats imbalanced still, maybe just set a cap on a part of the bounty, like keep is limitless on items, but the kill death ratio, which fucks it all up, could use a cap (right now it works so it gives +/- % on the item cost bounty based on kills deaths right? i just know that the more kills you have right now the bigger the chance of losing late game... doesnt really make sense does it?^^)

[TKF]

I played a 2 hour long game, where we we're on the losing side and we had fed a lot, and the enemy had few deaths, much kills. We barely turned the tide of the battle, and incredible enough, we won even if we lost all the factories + the art fab! only the 2 laser towers and the HQ did stand (We got help from our 3300 factories). We got SOOO much gold from killing them (I think one of them was worth 3k at top), that be became much stronger, even though the scoreboard showed us that their team had more kills overall in the end. This makes little sense. The bounty formula make it worth beeing feeder in long games if they can get some kills and get major bounty income. This wasn't possible in 8.15.

I remember the 8.15 version, where average BT game didn't take to long, but the the 8.2x versions came and changes made the average BT game longer.


These changes extended the time of winning an average BT game:

Bounty system that makes it harder to feed on feeders, killers that dies little is worth more gold
Troop Spawners like factory extends gameplay, more creeps to dug through, player creeps got as strong as force creeps.
Double upgrade extends gameplay, the force gets twice as fast stronger, cheaper upgrades.



I think the bounty system should have some sort of cap. If a player has 50 : 10, it would give a triple bounty. (I think I was using the right formula) Perhaps the cap should be twice the tank value and feeders should not give less than 50%. I only played a couple of games that has been very long, and I noticed this turning point thing, which does often turn the battle totally and makes the best team lose. In 1 case I won cuz of this, and this isn't really fair.

[Kenny]

Um... NO. If I'm fucking 80-3 or something, my tank should not be worth more just because I play better than the enemy. They are in NO WAY entitled to more gold just because their record sucks compared to mine when they have the same equipment. I'm sick of the few times some stupid 7-26 newbie talks trash thinking he's good just because he can effectively stall me and on occasion kill me under the right circumstances (Right circumstances among other things, being his team has far more leavers and my bounty happens to be far greater). For me the most common scenario would be how I can't claim a motherfucking control point if he keeps respawning/teleporting too fast.

I should NOT have to kill some guy with power roughly equivalent to mine, five times just to match the gold he gets for managing to kill me once. If I kill him five times for every time he kills me once, I'm clearly outplaying him but he gets the same amount of gold WTF? So basically I'm either forced to drag the game out because of this poor system by retreating whenever there's a possibility I could die (all the while their buildings are regenerating, and most if not all of my offensive effort is wasted) or do the stupid thing and park my tank on their control point and wait for the enemy respawns to teleport in and kill me for a 2K+ bounty. Which would of course drag the game out even more, except less favor for me.

So pretty much the scenario is, I have to somehow maintain playing superior to them about 100% of the time for the game to not drag out, and they only have to kill me a few times and suddenly they actually overpower me with heaps of gold they definitely didn't earn. This brings me to what I consider more problems with Battle Tank endgame. Taking into consideration I'm often on the side that "does better" and am not facing more than one Troop Command user, I am often on offense. When tanks are even in power defense is much easier. All the defense needs to do is wear the offense down, taking a heal whenever losing like 20%-40% of HP, and if offense keeps pushing forward, offense dies. It's a very simple method and it would take a huge mistake on the defender's part to lose an exchange.

But then you factor in this EZMODE method of defending control points by having people teleport in right on you when you just killed them, and someone 100% dedicated to defense completely squashes their offense equivalent. Even without teleportation, lay and prey is the defense game which grants a great advantage. They can even LAY DOWN AND DIE, THEN PREY AFTERWARDS because somehow they're entitled to a quicker respawn time for playing miserably (Noticeably lower in tank level) But factor in EZMODE Defense and it would take the mother of all fuckups for them to lose a control point.

When I'm closing in on a Control Point, killing every single enemy tank in the way, they respawn in like 13 seconds for playing bad and if they manage to kill me once somehow I take 25 seconds to respawn, which is very ample time for them to take advantage of any open control points. THAT IS NOT RIGHT, PLAYING DEDICATED DEFENSE SHOULD NOT BE MORE EFFECTIVE THAN DEDICATED OFFENSE FOR THE PURPOSE OF OFFENSE.

[Henry12]

gosh im glad to see that people agree so strongly with me... i was ready to defend my point with all i could muster, but it seems that wont be nessecary.
and i agre with kenny.. it is ridiculesly easy to denfend compared to attack, and even more so with the fucked up bounty system, but not sure how to fix that, or if it is even nesscary, if you fix the bounty system first.

[psycho_dmr]

--->> this new bounty-system sucks... as i said several times now... but nobody's listen to me...

[Batto]

Lol, nobody listens to the MOD

But i must also agree with all of you. I also think that defense in late game is also much easier, because offense doesnt have any creeps to kill at the moment they destroyed all factorys from the enemy. Meanwhile, defense can easily creep a lot then.

[Exodus]

But i must also agree with all of you. I also think that defense in late game is also much easier, because offense doesnt have any creeps to kill at the moment they destroyed all factorys from the enemy. Meanwhile, defense can easily creep a lot then.

You get the gold you lost through the destroyed factories back. With every destroyed factory your force gets the gold which you would normally get when the creeps spawn and then give it to you every 5 minutes. The force gold is much higher for the attacking team. Also, the defending team has less creeps as a distraction.

[Prog]

In generall this bounty system is quite nice, it may only need minor balancing changes. Why is the concept good? - It creates more action by encuraging the ones with lower stats to act more risky. Of course, this should not be the only reason which determines the winner, but it should reward a correct adaption to anyones own stats.

You should keep in mind:
A way too risky player looses in the beginning and the early stages of a btanks game, becouse at this point with his stats a more defensive aproach is the better way of playing. If his stats suffer due to this mistake he gets step by step to stats in which a more risky aproach is just the better way playing - the more skillfull way. Theoretically speaking the more bounty your enemy is worth in comparison to your bounty, the more aggressive and risky you should play. The less bounty he's worth in comparison to yours, the more defensive you should play and you have to reduce the risk you take. This fundamental theorem determines the correct strategy.

Due to this theorem a too risky player compared to his stats will die too often according to the bounty he gets for killing and gives his enemy. Someone who plays too defensive won't die often, but gets simply not enough kills. Its quite hard to determine exactly the correct way of playing, becouse there are other elements of skill as well, like movement patterns, correct adaption to the current situation and current enemys (with their own aggression factor,...), but in my opinion this theorem can be seen as a basis.

I hope that my knowledge of the english language is good enough to give you this first aproach of a basic strategic theorem according to the bounty.

[Kenny]

You get the gold you lost through the destroyed factories back. With every destroyed factory your force gets the gold which you would normally get when the creeps spawn and then give it to you every 5 minutes. The force gold is much higher for the attacking team. Also, the defending team has less creeps as a distraction.

But they most likely have buildings and automatic regeneration, so offense is often left with the choice of pushing full force and hoping it's enough to destroy the defense and do significant damage (and risking giving the enemy a payoff so they can stop you even easier), or playing conservatively (as this bounty system seems to promote, and in turn screws over the better players) and getting nothing done.

On that note, I feel I should bring up a major balance issue. The Antigrav's ultimate shouldn't work against a tank worth 5X what the Antigrav is by default. Not only does it do pretty heavy damage against a Frost Robot+, but it completely stops them for like five seconds which of course screws over the effort of offense while the Antigrav in question has a couple deaders waiting to respawn.

And Prog, I'm the kind of guy that tends to have 20-30 hero kills and 0-2 deaths in the first 20 minutes. Then of course if I manage to die for an array of reasons, I pretty much died five times in terms of gold. This is something that shouldn't happen. This bounty system has a tendency to screw over the better players and force a very long and boring game. Perhaps when you're actually in the positives on the scoreboard you'll understand. If you go like 2-20 in the first 20 minutes of a game, YOU_DON'T_DESERVE_A_COMEBACK. Much less a comeback practically handed to you by the poor bounty system.

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/6075/...158ev5.jpg

Just look at this picture. Notice anything wrong? And believe me, I was doing as much offense as I could.

[TKF]

You get the gold you lost through the destroyed factories back. With every destroyed factory your force gets the gold which you would normally get when the creeps spawn and then give it to you every 5 minutes. The force gold is much higher for the attacking team. Also, the defending team has less creeps as a distraction.

I sort of find it a bit small. It is the same gold amount that the creeps that would normally be spawned is worth? I tried the open source 7.55 and the difference there is huge (That may be cuz I was on my force alone when testing). But I don't know if you changed it since then.

[Kenny]

Okay, so the attacking force gets compensated for creeps. What about tanks? Defending tanks, assuming they aren't still in some Helicopter with all weapons, are much harder to kill. Meanwhile the attacking tanks are a bit easier to kill because of the convenience of defense having everything right next to them.

[Batto]

Well, i dont really see a problem in that. If you want to be more save being offensive, then just dont be! If it is when you are breaking down their last buildings and castle, then buy a factory so you can repair as easy and close by as them. It is always so that offence is harder then defense (in all games just as in real life) but mostly the rewards are also equally divided (offensive players get more rewards then defensive players, given that they are both same, experienced players).

[TKF]

Well the long games do more often happen now, but in 8.15 that was more rare. Many balance and game changes since then have contributed extended gameplay and longer battles. Maybe too long.

The bounty formula is annoying when it makes an unrealistic turning point after 2 hours of game.

[psycho_dmr]

the bounty-formula will be changed in next version (hopefully)

[Henry12]

awesome, im looking forward to the game being more balanced.
and just anobther thing, i love this map, AND THE DEVELOPERS ARE DOING A FREAKING AWESOME JOB, despite me being a whiny biatch, but i love this map, and want to see it at its best, so keep up the good work guys!^^

(i tihnk that needed to be said.. atleast from me, considering the rather negative posts ive made, but thats just because i care!^^)

[TKF]

The current change value is /50 I think. Will it be changed to /100?

[psycho_dmr]

no idea ^^
but i think it will be between 75 & 100, yes.