Maybe some changes

[Tez.Sick]

I would like to see some small (helpful) changes in ranked games.
It's just a suggestion, but maybe there are some people think same like me.

1. Just allow 1 multi bow each tank maximum, i mean, it will be not
possible to buy 2!
even 1 bow in mid sucks, but 2 is just unsocial behavior?
(btw: if i see double bow in a tank at mid = ban)

2. Remove the small flags on lane, cause people in early game start to camp
on that flag and its just annoying. I also use the flag, but often its hard for
my opponent to push me back, especially if i got scout or light tank and use the
healing skill, also for flying tanks its so much easier to use the
advantage of flag (at least remove the damn boxes ! ^^)....... but its just an offer, cause i know a lot of player like
to hang around by the flag

3. Player need at least 1400 elo for Ranked games .....

4. Remove explosives in Ranked games, no one use it and even there
is someone buying it, its surely game sabotage (99.99%)

Maybe some more people got suggestions, feel free to post or discuss about it.
I hope also Exo take part at this.

tez

[Flygplan]

I would like to see some small (helpful) changes in ranked games.
It's just a suggestion, but maybe there are some people think same like me.

1. Just allow 1 multi bow each tank maximum, i mean, it will be not
possible to buy 2!
even 1 bow in mid sucks, but 2 is just unsocial behavior?
(btw: if i see double bow in a tank at mid = ban)

2. Remove the small flags on lane, cause people in early game start to camp
on that flag and its just annoying. I also use the flag, but often its hard for
my opponent to push me back, especially if i got scout or light tank and use the
healing skill, also for flying tanks its so much easier to use the
advantage of flag (at least remove the damn boxes ! ^^)....... but its just an offer, cause i know a lot of player like
to hang around by the flag

3. Player need at least 1400 elo for Ranked games .....

4. Remove explosives in Ranked games, no one use it and even there
is someone buying it, its surely game sabotage (99.99%)

Maybe some more people got suggestions, feel free to post or discuss about it.
I hope also Exo take part at this.

tez

1: Multibow was probably made for lanes their the one that can kill creeps faster will push the other back useally.
However it seams people only use it if they are at mid which its advantage is not shown.
If it can stop people from sabotaging the game it can be good to limit its useage but it will hurt some builds that make good useage of multiple bows.

2: Its a good idea which will make bigger tanks more compeatable however I don't want people to camp at the cp which you currently can do with little if any penalaty so instead of healing they can give you gold by controlling by standing on them to pressure the campers and remove the barrels to lessen the advantage air got over ground.

3: I don't know.

4: I don't know.

[griffin1987]

I would like to see some small (helpful) changes in ranked games.
It's just a suggestion, but maybe there are some people think same like me.

1. Just allow 1 multi bow each tank maximum, i mean, it will be not
possible to buy 2!
even 1 bow in mid sucks, but 2 is just unsocial behavior?
(btw: if i see double bow in a tank at mid = ban)

2. Remove the small flags on lane, cause people in early game start to camp
on that flag and its just annoying. I also use the flag, but often its hard for
my opponent to push me back, especially if i got scout or light tank and use the
healing skill, also for flying tanks its so much easier to use the
advantage of flag (at least remove the damn boxes ! ^^)....... but its just an offer, cause i know a lot of player like
to hang around by the flag

3. Player need at least 1400 elo for Ranked games .....

4. Remove explosives in Ranked games, no one use it and even there
is someone buying it, its surely game sabotage (99.99%)

Maybe some more people got suggestions, feel free to post or discuss about it.
I hope also Exo take part at this.

tez

1. Never seen anyone buy 2 bows except for myself, and that was just for testing purposes (tried to measure creep rate vs. cost of different weapon combinations). And I really do hope your comment was just a joke, as just banning people for playing a valid weapon combination is ... well ... just a joke

2. I think they should be balanced better instead in terms of placement, whereas the most unbalanced flag imho is the top one on the bottom lane. I can camp there nearly every game, it's just insane - but I've never seen anyone doing that on the top flag on the top lane for example (at least not if you're bottom on the top lane, the opposite happens sometimes)

3. IMHO pretty pointless. At this point nearly everyone knows how pointless the elo system has gotten (it always was to some degree, as it's a system developed for single player games, not for team games, but it's been getting really bad recently with so many multi-accs and good players stopping to play). Also, if you want better ranked games, teach people how to play. Compared to some years ago current btanks skill I see is just so ridiculously low - the only thing people get better at is abusing the not-working kick system, insulting other people, sabotaging games etc. You won't fix that by requiring higher elo.

4. Finally something I agree with you on. While I really like someone good playing something creative with explosives (e.g. skyfort with explosives can be REALLY effective, seen a couple of single player kills whole enemy team without dying by doing that), I totally agree with you that it's mostly used for sabotaging. Problem is just, as long as the kick system doesn't allow to kick people sabotaging their team and has a needless delay in it, people will just try to find another way to sabotage their team.

Which brings me back to my all time favorite:
Make people kickable all the time and when there's enough votes, people should be kicked instantly instead of when the timer ends (so they don't have time to try eco sabotage or bomb the base)

Anyway, thumbs up for suggesting something, didn't think anyone besides gozo or me would still do this

[El_Polacco]

3. actually a team with one guy below 1400 ELO are too often overpowered and the worst player tend to have a good covering from skilled teammates or might be instantly kicked and the opposite side usually is unable to win .

[Prog]

1. is just a joke. Bow is a perfectly fine item choice. I don't know where this hate towards some items/tanks (e.g. airship) comes from, but it is seriously annoying. Fun fact: So many people claim that the skill level was higher and pretty much everything bt related better a long time ago. However, the most played tank back then was Airship and Bows were frequently bought at the start. Noone questioned either of those choices.

2. Not sure about that.

3. Ranked is not about having only the best players possible. It's about balancing teams and tracking stats. In fact I think it does that pretty well. At least better than just randoming. If you want only good players organize yourself to start inhouses. Ranked was never meant to replace those, but to add something different inbetween normal pubs and inhouses. Something that could be used to scout good players for those inhouses and potentially clans.

4. Anything can be used as sabotage. Not a good reason to ban it in my opinion.

[Flygplan]

People just don't seams to like the idea about some tanks or some items allows them to get more gold then the more "usefull" ones.
At lane a build like basic bow bow basic probably is supperior to basic basic basic basic for example because you should push the opponent back with it because you kill creeps way faster however many players seams to think bow useless ego weapon and bow users = egoplayers.

[Prog]

People are also way to fixated on the meta they know. Creep only weapons can be used with doubling the side laners for example. If you play with double bow + something in mid and force a 2v2 on, say, top you either win just be farming better in mid or you get the top turret very early.

Unfortunately what happens when you actually try to do something like this is: You get flamed for creep weapons and for coming to top. Sad :/

[EarthR]

People just don't seams to like the idea about some tanks or some items allows them to get more gold then the more "usefull" ones.
At lane a build like basic bow bow basic probably is supperior to basic basic basic basic for example because you should push the opponent back with it because you kill creeps way faster however many players seams to think bow useless ego weapon and bow users = egoplayers.

never gonna happen. You start bow you take damage your enemy doesnt. Even if you push him back a bit you will be forced to return to your cp to heal hence your enemy will recover. by the time you heal and return you might push your enemy a bit but you will be forced to return again. Even if by the end of the first 5 min you are slightly ahead in creeps it will change then. Your bow bow start can only work partially good(only for first 5 min) and that depends on your and your enemy start tanks. All creep waves have gaps between them so its not like your create a big creep wave to do anything significant. Bow bow light tank can never push basic basic light tank. Whenever i faced bow starters at lane i never was on the defensive for the record

People are also way to fixated on the meta they know. Creep only weapons can be used with doubling the side laners for example. If you play with double bow + something in mid and force a 2v2 on, say, top you either win just be farming better in mid or you get the top turret very early.

Unfortunately what happens when you actually try to do something like this is: You get flamed for creep weapons and for coming to top. Sad :/

Prog your intentions might be pure but lets face the facts here. an example you start double bow and a teamate starts demo basic. Wouldnt you be pissed if the exact opposite was happening? all you gain with double bow is to get the biggest number of creeps thus making your other 2 teamates fall behind in gold/exp. Dont make an ego start sound anything more than its actually is. your double bow start gives nothing to team it only gives you something. Its the same as the scout+4 bombarding+iron hull starts. You chose a tank to creep only and dont contribute anything to team play even if you try to present it as a good thing in the end its for your own personal benefit your team doesnt gain anything from it. Even if push your enemies you still harm your other teamates

[Prog]

You don't harm anyone as long as the total teamgold benefits from the choice. This whole mindset about something being "ego" is in itself totally wrong and egoistic. Start thinking from a team perspective, not a player perspective.

Might be too much to demand from non-premade teams though...

[EarthR]

You don't harm anyone as long as the total teamgold benefits from the choice. This whole mindset about something being "ego" is in itself totally wrong and egoistic. Start thinking from a team perspective, not a player perspective.

Might be too much to demand from non-premade teams though...

you choosing to creep the first 5-10 minutes cant be good for a team. Dont try to present something that benefits you as something that benefits the team. the entire mindset of i start with a goal to creep/outcreep is ego in itself. If you play in a team game then all should get the same so you trying to get the most cant be called team play unless you and your other teamates agree to that plan but that requires time to talk and organize so its something that out of question in non-premade teams

[Prog]

That just wrong. The idea that "all should get the same" is a terrible mindset. Players can fulfill different roles to win the game as a team. Also consider the following:

1. It can be very beneficial if the gold/xp is unequally distributed. For example: Being the first heavy tank in the game or getting an early hunter while opponents are still low hp is a huge advantage. Or being the first level 10/13 in the game can net your team easily some additional kills that even distribution would never have.

2. The aim is always to get as a team more gold in total than the opponent team gets. Sometimes that goal is accomplished by outcreeping the opponent's. That has nothing to do with ego whatsoever. If you can get a gold advantage by playing 2-2-1 with creep weapons in mid you should do so.

You are stuck in your solo-player mindset and believe everyone is.


(And of course, people should discuss tactics way more. They should also be way more open to unfamiliar strategy and adept to other players. That is not what we are talking about.)

[Flygplan]

I never said that its good to start with bow then you lane but it can be good to have some.
Example raider could go basic bow bow basic and use q abillity against enemy tank while killing creeps very fast which leaves enemy tank without any cover.

Prog argument is complety valid why the so called ego play can actually help your team, if you get very underfeed take support roll like techer, miner, factory builder and lasertowerbuulder on front cp.

[EarthR]

That just wrong. The idea that "all should get the same" is a terrible mindset. Players can fulfill different roles to win the game as a team. Also consider the following:

1. It can be very beneficial if the gold/xp is unequally distributed. For example: Being the first heavy tank in the game or getting an early hunter while opponents are still low hp is a huge advantage. Or being the first level 10/13 in the game can net your team easily some additional kills that even distribution would never have.

Still all you say is that if i get to be the first to get big tank i will help my team by getting even richer. Nowhere there is anything about your teamates earning anything. And who decides who will be the one to go 2 bows. Why not all , see how there is a problem. Also if i dont know you how can i trust that with the extra gold you are getting you will do something useful? heck i might see you getting an electro at min 5 or a steel hull so you can survive longer while you creep. Its easy to present something as good but without proper planning it just all me me me.

2. The aim is always to get as a team more gold in total than the opponent team gets. Sometimes that goal is accomplished by outcreeping the opponent's. That has nothing to do with ego whatsoever. If you can get a gold advantage by playing 2-2-1 with creep weapons in mid you should do so.

You are stuck in your solo-player mindset and believe everyone is.

Even if you are behind in gold you can turn everything around with proper teamplay. the goal isnt to get richer but to have a working team
all your explanation is around me outcreeping, me getting bigger tank first, me getting more kills, me etc so i dont think you are one to talk about solo mindset. Your only consideration about your team is that since i will be getting richer and as a team will be getting richer its all good, when in fact you will be rich the other 2 will be poor. If that isnt a solo-player mindset i dont know what is.
I am more team orientated than you so i dont think you can call me stuck in solo-player mindset at least i dont lie to myself about selfish things and calling them non selfish.

Since you want to talk about a perfect harmony there is no I in team. And to counter your examples here see how its easy:
you can get heavy with 1 bow at min 10 why you need 2 bows? same result but keeping your teamates in play.

if all 3 get more or less equal creeps then they could use teamplay to kill your hunter/demon/frosty and the 2 weak followers. I Dont think that 1 strong tank can take on 3 coordinated tanks.

For the record i am not taking into account personal skills. I am talking about a game where all players are about the same lvl of skill

[Prog]

If you start reading carefully you can noticed that I never used the word "I" in my previous posts. I gave arguments on a general level. I don't mind being the one who gets no creeps and a mate getting double bow. All that matters is whether it works for the team all things considered.

And the working team is a means to the end of getting more gold as a team compared to the opponents.

[EarthR]

the i i was referring to was on a general level also. I as in the one with double bow. Its different with fixed teams and its different with total strangers. If you see a teamate with double bow you might support it(highly doubt it) but to what end if you have no clue what he has in mind. like i said difference between a perfect world and reality

[Flygplan]

Betting all on one tank isn't stupid at all in my oppinion because getting a big strong tank very very fast can often kill multiple enemies with abillites and having good weapons help too.
Its far easier to cordinate with few but stronger tanks too.
The underfeed teammates should probably go tinkers with all 3 mines tech and build facs later on tank up to guard or titans.
Mines are very strong if you got advantage and very cheap to which allow the underfeed to still play a vitale roll later on.
To know how everyone plan use the chat to ask them and tell them what you are doing too.
If people wan't to sabotage the game bows are just one way of many to do it.

[Prog]

Underfeed teammates should not go mines or facs, but rather for tanks that scale in some way without much gold. (Mines and facs can sometimes work, but they are unreliable) For instance I suggest these tanks: Distributor (for the assist kill bonus gold, reactive armor and the ultimate), Medivac (for the ultimate and heal), Hunter (percentual damage and cc), Guard (like you mentioned, one of the best initiation spells in game with the ultimate), and maybe Airship/Ghost with siege pack, if the situation is favourable for turret farming/sieging.

Those tanks are very useful to the team even underfarmed because they bring so much utility. They can stay tanky with relatively little weapons until endgame tanks and still do their job very well. Orbital is also good in general low eco situations, because it scales with time.

[UnifiedDoom]

I definitely agree with Prog that underfarmed teammates should NOT get mines/facs/towers. Doing so just creates this snowballing effect where people just fall even farther behind until they become totally irrelevant.

I think my main issue though is that these high utility roles that Prog is talking about are also probably the hardest to play. Let's be realistic here, generally speaking less experienced players are usually going to be the ones that end up "underfarmed" as you put it. If they end up taking these utility tanks they might just wind up even more behind than they started because they won't be able to make the "impact" that you're talking about. In my opinion tanks like gaurd, ghost, and hunter are much harder to play effectively than tanks like airship and heavy. Also while distributor and medivac may have high utility, they require a lot of investment in hulls for hp to avoid being killed instantly, a huge strain on an already low budget and inventory. A tactic like distributor orbital isn't something that is just automatically useful when bought, I'd say it takes a much higher level of execution to make an "impact" with that tactic than say a heavy tank, a level of execution which most inexperienced players wouldn't possess in my opinion. Furthermore these utility tanks severely lack any farming power so they just might just end up getting outfarmed by their teammates and then steamrolled by the enemy lategame tanks. Really when you're underfarmed, you're biggest concern isn't the enemy, but any weapon stacking tank (usually an airship) on your own team.

Honestly I think the biggest issue with this game are the people that first demand upgrades for their own tank and then constantly yell at their teammates to "BUY/SAVE TANKS" while at the same time taking all the creeps and all the kills. It's the most stupid and asinine thing imaginable, but it happens nearly every game. It's not easy to save up for a lategame tank, especially when you're behind and all your teammates are still just taking everything else and leaving you with nothing.

[Prog]

I agree, these utility tanks are difficult to use, which is the drawback of being able to influence the game with less gold simply by being played the right way. On the other hand, I think getting a bit outfarmed is no big deal on those tanks, because you scale into mid-lategame even without getting many weapons yourself.


The upgrade stuff you talk about is really important. The decision who buys the upgrades is crucial for someone who plays on low economy and depends a lot on the tank and total hp. For example, it is no big deal to stay on a hunter for a very long time, because even with endgame tanks around you can still be useful. However, staying on a medivac against infernals and sky fortresses is really terrible because your ultimate doesn't do anything in these situations. So in the hunter game you may go for upgrades, while in the medivac situation you definitely should not.

[gozo1985]

2. yeah please replace the two "weak" flags.