remove leaver penalty & giveup / change kick back

[griffin1987]

Suggestion:
Remove penalty ppl get in league for leaving as well as the giveup command.
Change -kick mechanics back to what they were before all the algorithmic guessing.

I've been playing bt now for 4 or 5 years, and even after all those changes to the kick system I still think the original one (or the one I see as original) is the best - the one where everyone was kickable at a certain time, given enough votes (sometimes needing votes by the enemy team).

At the moment I only experience that you can't kick people standing around in base, flaming, swearing, discriminating, spamming, ... while people who really try, but might be new to the game, get kicked in qualify. For me that is the worst kind of situation possible.

And regarding giveup: Can't remember when I've last finished a game winning. I always play to the end ( I think there's been _one_ exception where we had 5vs2 at the end where I gave up ), because I think this game is fun, and don't need to win. And even if I don't always agree with losing, I think it's unfair to the winning team to end the game early, as well as most people don't get any endgame/defending experience that way. You know, I've won games where our headquarter had less than 1% hp, and probably most people who've played a lot of games have.

Also I'd prefer people leaving the game than standing around in a corner, flaming others, going suicide, doing eco sabotage, ... etc. but that's not happening right now, because they don't wanna lose their stay percentage on the bots. And that just sucks. Really, it's better to have a leaver than someone sticking to the corner of your base.

Right now bt is in some ways more fun than it has been (because of increased dynamics due to a lot of minor things), while being WAY more frustrating than before at the same time (due to giveups, imbalanced tanks like architect, unability to kick people sticking to the corner of your base).

Posting replays and requesting to ban people changes NOTHING about that, because for everyone who gets banned, at least 1 other new player comes, doing the same stuff (or the same player registers with a new nickname) The problem get's bigger due to the fact that most people play on league qualify bot, as the ranked bot takes forever to fill up.

.50

[Exodus]

I believe that the general player attitude has sadly taken a turn for the worse in the last years, which lead to more kick abuse or in general to situations where you want to kick someone. Also the fact that the league is nearly the sole hoster of games leads to the state of mind where you just want to win your games and if that doesn't work, you give up.

It's sad to see how the BT community behaves and treats each other.

But regarding that kick suggestion, I'll have to decline that. With your suggestion we have completed the circle and would be, where we started. As you are aware, there was a reason why the kick system has been changed several times over the years and it seems that the first version lies so long in the past, that people only remember the good parts of it ;)
I believe in its first incarnation everyone was prompted for a vote (which most people still do, for some reason (some even still use the -notips command ...)). I think you needed about 80% yes votes for a succesfull kick. So you had to rely on the enemy team to kick someone from your team. But in a lot of cases the enemy team just refused to kick, because it was a advantage for them to leave the player in question in the game. Because people were (and still are) selfish, this version is not working either.
So the second version came along in which only your own team was able to vote. Since there is always someone that is either afk, does not know how to use the kick system or just refuses kicks in general, you didn't every player to vote yes for a succesfull kick. Since the player in question can't vote against his own kickvote, that leaves three players that need to vote yes to kick. This made it pretty easy to kick, especially if the guys in the team knew each other. This lead to a lot of kicks based on simple sympathies or general moods of the players, so many were kicked just out of spite.
To limit those kind of kicks, the special conditions have been introduced, which were also changed several times.

All in all I have to say, that I rather have a more restrictive kick command, than an easy one. People shouldn't be kicked all the time.
Maybe another slight adjustment could help: make kicks slighty harder (more votes needed), but also include votes from the other team? Since there are only -yes votes, this should not be disadvantageous for you.

Well, this became way more text than I intended, but I hope you get the point.

[gozo1985]

Also the fact that the league is nearly the sole hoster of games leads to the state of mind where you just want to win your games and if that doesn't work, you give up.

i guess this is the main reason why griffin is pissed.

i rember times where the defending team gets alot of adavantage by just sitting in the base and camp the creeps to fight back.

since it has been changed (by increasing the 5min interval gold) a game where you lost all capturable facs is over (99%). the only turnaround can happen if there are leavers.
Even if you save for big tanks to start a turnaround the team which captured all facs first is close to a big tank either (or having a big advantage with item power) so its nearly impossible. And thats the fact why so many players denial playing or just giveup.Becouse they lose stay percentage or get a penalty with leaving they do that.

So i guess these are two main parts why the game isnt well balanced and many players are bored today.

1) Is it possible to think about a change for the 5min interval gold increasement some time ago? (And i mean not to go back to the old system - where it was too easy for the defending team to fight back).

2) Is there anything we (or better you the btmapper(s)) to stop this game abuse by denial of playing, eco sabotage, and so on... ? I mean theres a reason why the not just only quit! they lose stay percentage and/or get penalty. If they would quit it will help the team a bit - all other actions they start - damages the team

[stibi-]

i don't like the idea about removing penalty & giveup
why would you stay and fight if you could leave without getting a penalty?

if you want to leave you can play qualifygames

[gozo1985]

if you want to leave you can play qualifygames

9 out of 10 player IN QUALIFY giveup, sabotage, denial.

I hope you dont mean that the pissed guys (griffin for example) should leave.. he wants to finish his game no matter if he loses or has bad teammates or stats.

[Perfektionist]

9 out of 10 player IN QUALIFY giveup, sabotage, denial.

I hope you dont mean that the pissed guys (griffin for example) should leave.. he wants to finish his game no matter if he loses or has bad teammates or stats.

then dont play qualify I like the giveup command and i only use it if it really obvious that my team and i lost.

[stibi-]

if you want to leave you can play qualifygames

9 out of 10 player IN QUALIFY giveup, sabotage, denial.

I hope you dont mean that the pissed guys (griffin for example) should leave.. he wants to finish his game no matter if he loses or has bad teammates or stats.

hell no he should stay till the end, place a ban request & enjoy the next game without these fools

[gozo1985]

then dont play qualify I like the giveup command and i only use it if it really obvious that my team and i lost.

sometimes i dont want to wait 30 mins or more til the ranked game is full. and its not about the giveup command itself. i use it too sometimes but only for two reasons:

- All others in my team want to give up
- there are too many leavers on a side (like 2 vs 5)

the thing is that many people use the giveup command to "not waste time". I mean its BT and theres an !ENDGAME PART! by destroying the enemies base.
And im hundred percent sure there are many people outside complaining if they are in the winning team, having nice items and weps and wanna punch the enemies base but they give up - and in the next game they do exaclty they same in the losing team and giveup too... no matter if the winning team is pissed becouse they skipped the endgame.

[stibi-]

you can't force them to play the endgame part in a qualify game by removing the -giveup command
if somebody does not want to play anymore he could go afk aswell & watch a movie

if you play ranked games please report these guys - there will be consequences for them
you could join the game, start the alarm and do something else while you are waiting

[eSVau]

Do not play qualify!

But i agree that in qualify a kick should be way harder.

[gozo1985]

Ok maybe we get stuck in here with oppinions. but please tell me if you agree with this facts:

A stupid player gets pissed:
- He starts to eco sabotage... you cant kick him
- He starts to idle in the base and moves somtimes... you cant kick him
- He starts to flame, insult, spam, racism or whatever... ofcourse you can ignore him but... you cant kick him
- He starts to damage the team by giving up a lane(s) not helping defending on purpose... you cant kick him

and really sorry but this sucks...

[stibi-]

solution --> http://btanks.net/forum/showthread.php?tid=3461

+ see exodus' post - i agree

[gozo1985]

this does not save the game. sorry. this prepends people of doing it in another game (account based ofcourse).

[stibi-]

that's all i can do :/

[gozo1985]

yeah becouse you cant kick him ingame.........................................................

[griffin1987]

Regarding exodus suggestion:

My problem is not so much about people needing to many votes to get kicked, but that it is possible to not be kickable at all!

And while I neither like the current kick-vote algorithm, nor the new performance stuff (it's just so completely wrong most of the time - best player getting lowest performance while worst one gets highest, and with best I mean the one which added the most to the team winning), I don't think I've complained about it a single time, because I know how hard it can be to make a good algorithmic guess, and how many, non-computational facts need to be taken into account, which of course isn't possible.

Anyway, i'd be totally okay for letting the other team vote in cases where no kick would be possible at all right now.

Also, I'm suggesting something new now:
Negative kick votes. Sometimes people start to randomly try kick others because they just have a bad mood. In such situations I'd like to do -no or something like that to remove half a point or the like. Removing a whole point would probably be bad, because it would mean that you would nearly never be able to kick people who're friends and in the same team, and that they could behave however they want, because they could always safe each other from being kicked.

How about it?

[griffin1987]

9 months later and we're still stuck with this kick system, even though there have been so many suggestions about how to fix the shortcomings.

Citing exodus post again:
"Maybe another slight adjustment could help: make kicks slighty harder (more votes needed), but also include votes from the other team? Since there are only -yes votes, this should not be disadvantageous for you."

Combine that with the idea of people always being kickable, and it fixes nearly all of the current problems without making it easier again to kick people "just because".

For example:
If someone started mass-insults and racism, but had a good score, he could be kickable with 7=(remaining player count - 2) votes (9 is a bad idea, because someone will always not know how to type -yes or currently be in a dogfight where he doesn't want to type). Same for people standing in base corner, doing sabotage etc.


Another thing which would be VERY important: Can you change the kick command in a way that when the needed amount of votes is reached that player is kicked instantly? Because currently, when he sees that enough votes are there, he has up to about 15 seconds left to do eco sabotage, explode in base or mess things up any other way.

Also, because some people still type -no, it would be nice if, even if you didn't add negative votes again (though I would support them, maybe with half a point or something), at least print a message like "Player xy does not support this kick vote", because more often than not it's just to tell people "Don't try pausing the game, I won't kick him for that reason"

Thanks,

Best Regards

[eSVau]

Another thing which would be VERY important: Can you change the kick command in a way that when the needed amount of votes is reached that player is kicked instantly? Because currently, when he sees that enough votes are there, he has up to about 15 seconds left to do eco sabotage, explode in base or mess things up any other way.

Also, because some people still type -no, it would be nice if, even if you didn't add negative votes again (though I would support them, maybe with half a point or something), at least print a message like "Player xy does not support this kick vote", because more often than not it's just to tell people "Don't try pausing the game, I won't kick him for that reason"

I do like both ideas. We dropped "-no" votes since the do not fulfill any purpose but it would not harm to print out such a message

[Max]

Your idea to make again kick system open to all is bad I think. There will always be people who won't want to make a kick or make a bad kick.

I just take one example : you want to kick a feeder while you are having a bad game. Opponents won't kick the "bad guy" to make you and your team get back in the game. The "bad guy" will be mad at you and try a kick on you : you are having a bad game and kick votes are on : opponents will kick you because they know you are a good player.

I think the kick system is right the way it is. And sometimes it's too easy to make a kick. A game I played fighting in Light force. Dark force had 4 players with positive ratio taking care of the game and 1 with bad stats (around 4-15 sth like that). In our team we had average players and 2-3 players with negative ratio. They made a kick 2 seconds after getting 1 control point (!). Even if team were balanced. Just because of leavers gold... But hey : they weren't that good anyway and lost the game, complaining next about the guy they kicked LoL.

Suggestion : there is just that thing I would say about kick system : actual system need another information : team kills. When there is a feeder in a team but team leads kills a kick is just troll shit and should not happen. All can understand why.

Anyway about your idea of instant kick when enough votes are told I agree with it.

[griffin1987]

@Max: At this point we probably agree to disagree

To me, the kick system shouldn't be there to kick players out which are bad at the game - I think they have the same right to play as everyone else. That is, if they aren't doing shit deliberately.

To me the kick system should be there to kick people who:
.) Stand in the corner instead of leaving
.) Mass-Insult others ('Im not complaining about people who sometimes write "Idiot", but when someone starts talking racist, about other peoples family or the like, then I'd preferrably kick that one - no matter if he's a good player or a bad one)
.) try to sabotage their team, e.g. by exploding on team mates or in base or trying eco sabotage
.) Just doing what they want because they think everyone else is just there for them (e.g. when people leave their lane without saying anything and refuse to go back even after you ask them to and start insulting you after you tell them "you should at least ASK if someone swaps with you" - really, when people ask me politely I do it (swapping with them) nearly always, but not if someone has no manners)
.) saving and pausing game to disturb others
.) use a lagtool (yes, there is such a thing - people benefit from it by using command chaining before they activate it) or think that it's not their problem when they want to play bt with 2 seconds latency on their UMTS connection somewhere in the mountains
.) suicide all the time, waiting just long enough between deaths so you can't kick them (had players like that a couple of times now, they even write in global chat "you can kill me again in about half a minute, need to wait so they can't kick me" and things like that)

And no, ban requests aren't an option there because
1.) it doesn't help on qualify bot
2.) it doesn't help for the current game and most of the time for all games of that day or even the following days, depending how long it takes till an admin looks at it (don't take this the wrong way, I really appreciate the time you put into watching replays when no one pays you for that)
3.) it's not that much work to get a new acc in with enough games to play even ranked again, and nowadays most people play qualify anyway (you can finish a couple of qualify games before the next ranked game is even half full)

Also, to copy & paste the list by gozo again, because it still holds true 10 months later:
--- snip ---
- He starts to eco sabotage... you cant kick him
- He starts to idle in the base and moves somtimes... you cant kick him
- He starts to flame, insult, spam, racism or whatever... ofcourse you can ignore him but... you cant kick him
- He starts to damage the team by giving up a lane(s) not helping defending on purpose... you cant kick him
--- snip ---

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But of course this is just my oppinion / perspective, which I hope you can understand better now (e.g. and also the WHY I want to change the kick system in such a way)

----


Anyway, can we have a "YES" on the two things (insta-kick with enough votes + print a message on -no) everyone seems to agree (or at least not disagree) on then @EXODUS? If I have to choose between no change at all and small steps in the right direction, I'd prefer the later one

Thanks

Best Regards

Johannes