Mine detonater kit ideas

[the truth]

I'd like to discuss a few problems and imbalances associated with the mine detonater as well as some ideas and solutions to it. Please feel free to add ideas of your own if you like.

Firstly, the way the mine detonator works is imbalanced relative to what types of mines it is used on. The way that the mine detonator works means that it detonates all mines within a very small radius; that is, the effects on small, large and heavy mines is exactly the same. This makes the detonater way too cheap for it's effectiveness against a few heavy mines, but not effective enough against massed smaller, weaker mines (especially as you can only have 1 detonator while your opponent can have up to 3 mines + 1 if demolisher). Another problem is that unlike other non-weapon items of similar cost, the mine detonater cannot be combined with other items to save up item space, making it very costly late game when you cant afford extra item slots. Finally, it doesn't really have a combat role outside of slowly picking off mines and detecting enemies.


My first suggestion is that mine detonators only destroy smaller mines and not larger mines and have a larger AOE. Instead, the mine detonator 'DOWNGRADES' larger mines to weaker mines (i.e. HEAVY -> LARGE -> SMALL -> destroyed). This would make the detonator more powerful against massed smaller mines (due to larger AOE) but less powerful against larger mines, making it more balanced for it's cost.

Secondly, I think that there should be a limit of 1 mine per player as opposed to the current situation where you can have 3. While covering the whole map in mines is a fun tactic, it is a bit unfair that you can have 3 mines (4 if demolisher) when an opponent can only have 1 detonator as a counter. If this is implemented, there should also be a mine upgrade pack that allows you to upgrade small mines to large mines to heavy mines.

There should also be some item that the detonator can combine with (in the form of a pack) to make it more useful late game. Maybe a hull, a speed upgrade, a repair upgrade or some completely new item. [On a side note about packs, there should really be a pack that lets you upgrade the trader hunter pack into an ultimate pack, or maybe a pack that combines speed and repair crew and a second pack to combine it with trader hunter pack into the ultimate pack]

Lastly, I believe that the mine detonator should have a secondary function that is useful in combat. For example, the mine detonator could temporarily stun the enemy (maybe the shockwave that causes mines to detonate messes up the enemy's tank), it could detonate tp breakers as well as mines, it could stun or damage enemy buildings, etc. This could make the item viable even if the enemies aren't massing mines.


Anyway, to recap, I think that mine detonators should:
- Have a larger AOE (and maybe range)
- Not destroy larger mines, but instead downgrade them into weaker mines
- Be able to combine with other items (preferable something new like an iron or steel hull or bow)
- Have another use such as the ability to stun enemies or the ability to disable tp breakers.
- There should be a limit of 1 mine per player as well as a mine upgrade pack that upgrades weaker mines into stronger mines.

[Bhangbhangduc]

How about make a pack that combines it with a hull? That way it could be useful if you missed a mine.

I disagree that it should not blow up medium and heavy mines. Killing people with their own mines that they just laid is too fun too get rid of

[GooglyBoogly]

Another problem is that unlike other non-weapon items of similar cost, the mine detonater cannot be combined with other items to save up item space, making it very costly late game when you cant afford extra item slots.

This is just plain incorrect. A mine detonator costs 1k and can only detonate mines, it cannot see them. However, it can combine into a mine DEFUSER pack that includes a radar and thus can counter smoke generator and trader windwalk amongst other things.

[qweqqweq]

The best time to use mines is to counter a stronger team that has less players than you. The only time I would ever consider purchasing mines is to take advantage of my team having a greater number of item slots. It's like you're saying, "let's make mines totally useless."

[the truth]

"However, it can combine into a mine DEFUSER pack that includes a radar and thus can counter smoke generator and trader windwalk amongst other things."

Clearly i meant that i think that the defuser pack should be able to combine with something else (ex. iron or steel hull) so that it is more useful mid-late game. Sorry for the confusion.

"It's like you're saying, "let's make mines totally useless.""

I don't want to make mines totally uselesss, I just want small mines to be easier to counter and large mines to be harder to counter (where as right now the diffuser counters all types of mines equally well).


Anyway, any comments on the idea of giving the diffuser another ability such as the ability to stun an opponent for 1 sec or the ability to defuse tp breakers?

[DOGG1]

The problem that i have with it is that it gives you cash for kills. It should only be teamkill...

$2,500 - Mines
$5,000 - Heavy Mines
$7,500 - Huge Mines

$15,000 - Total

Countered by the defuse pack (which is OK). You can still mine because the pack has a cooldown and small AOE. If you disperse your mines, they can't get them all. It also forces the other team to use up an item slot which otherwise might hold a weapon or hull. If you're a demoilsher you can also use your skill mines so that's 4 mines which a single pack can't counter fully.

The pack (or radar + defuser) shouldn't enable a player to counter 15K of items AND get money for it too, it's too much of an advantage.

[the truth]

As a side suggestion, I noticed that there is not an item that increases mana regen (sure there are batteries but they increase mana capacity). How about an item like sobi mask that increases mana regen? This could be a potential item to combine with the defuser pack.

[qweqqweq]

As a side suggestion, I noticed that there is not an item that increases mana regen (sure there are batteries but they increase mana capacity). How about an item like sobi mask that increases mana regen? This could be a potential item to combine with the defuser pack.

I like the mana regen idea. It takes FOREVER to regen mana especially late game.

side side note: You can't even use all the titan's abilities with full mana and still have 50 mana left over to use tp and a power pack.

[ChronicStoned]

it's offtopic but i would really like it too!
qweqqweq as far as i know you have played TKF's Insane Mod, right?
did you tried his battery?
it costs 1.5k i think and gives bonus mana
->upgrade(3k gold) gives same amount of bonus mana + additional mana regeneration
->upgrade(13k gold) gives the mana shield ability
why don't add this to normal btanks? and i think many previous versions ago the ultimate pack increased your mana regeneration, why was this changed?

[the truth]

"The pack (or radar + defuser) shouldn't enable a player to counter 15K of items AND get money for it too, it's too much of an advantage."

Yes, a 1-2K item should be able to counter 15K of items, however, there should be atleast some counter to that 15K of items, but right now there is none.

Atm, there is no counter to mines, except the defuser, which cannot keep up with a player with 3 mines. So either there should be a limit of 1 mine per player or there should be advanced defusers of similar cost that would allow you to counter massing of mines. (or make the current defuser better vs massing of mines but weaker vs just a few mines)


One common scenario that I encounter and often use against others is to start out with a demolisher (with bow or whatever) and to creep / mine mid early. These mines will slowly get me killls and cover a larger and larger area, later i might get the 2500 mines and mine mid even faster. Now the enemy has 3 options, they can either not get mine defusers (in which case my mines will continue to get me kills, the mine field will continue to grow and they will pretty much be unable to get to the middle shop), they can get hulls and tanks with lots of health and try to destroy them by running them over (which will probably give me a few kills when they make a wrong turn and as they dedicated resources to health, they have less dps which means less kills), or they can get defusers.

In the case of the 3rd option, this is a worse case application for defusers; there are masses of weak mines and as the defuser has a low aoe it is strong vs a few powerful mines but weak vs masses of weak mines. If only 1 opponent gets a defuser, the demolisher + 2500 mines can probably mine at the same rate if not faster than the mines are destroyed. Only if multiple enemy players dedicate themselves to defusing can the mines be destroyed faster than they are created. In this scenario I would usually simply sell the 2500 mines and buy a new tank. At this point i would have wasted only 1250 from buying and selling the mines (which would easily be made up for by the kills they obtained), i would still have a mine field that could give me potential kills and i would have forced my oppnents to use up some of their inventory slots and 2250 per mine defuser with radar (which become useless once the mines are gone and only increase enemy bounty).

So one major problem with mine defusers is that if you get one (which costs about the same as the 2500 mines if you include the radar) is that the enemy can simply stop going mines in which case they would have gained gold from the kills the mines got them (while you get nothing) and you would be left with a useless item. This is why I would suggest giving defusers another ability such as the ability to stun or defuser tp breakers.

And as for those who suggest mine defusers can pay themselves back by killing others with their own mines, I suggest that is near impossible unless you are against total noobs as: 1. non-noobs tend to move around alot, making it difficult to hit them with a small aoe mine defuser when they are on top of one of their own mines, this is especially true if you are not host had have a 0.1+ second delay. 2. both the radar and the defuser have a short range so you will have to be close to the enemy to see where their mines are and use the defuser. If the enemy goes long range they will tend to avoid you making it that much harder to get to them, meaning that if you use it on someone with long range you will probably get hit by their weapons and be outside protection from your creeps.

[Bhangbhangduc]

How about make the remote fuse have upgrades?

level 1: small and demolisher mines only
normal cooldown
level 2: medium mines and lower
33% lower cooldown
level 3: all mines
50% lower cooldown

[xxxLeviathanxxx]

i liek alot of the ideas in here. but one that really caught my attention is the stunned the pack. it would give it a much used and late game ability. maybe not increase its ability to counter mines. but please remember that well the person may be able to hold 3 mines in his inventory that means he has 3 less other items. making them often very vulnerable.
back to the pack stunning if it were say an emp wave instead of a i guess remote sensor then it could be used as somethign like a 3 second building stun or a tank stunner. and maybe too far but reset the tank abilitys (if possible with only somethign liek a 25 % cooldown but make it almost eliminate certain tactics that fully rely on a tanks skills.) to clarify that would be instead of a skill say haveing a 40 second cooldown the cooldown would only be 10 second but that leaves them vulnerable to skill attacks

[hellraven]

Ok... the mine defuser is completely useless... Just played a game where 4v4 the other team has only their base w/o computer factories and 2 of them has mines and overwhelm 2 defuser

Even though i had Frost tank i didnt have enough hp to blow some by tanking them (which is very difficult considering the other team has weapons too), get back to mid factory, heal and back to tank more mines, by the time i get back they would have replaced the 2 i blew besides another 2 more... the other sets the mines far enough so that defuser cant get 2 at a time... making defuser useless in this situation

Mines should be limited to 1 per player and demolisher should not be able to carry mines or they must set defuser aoe bigger...

At this moment, you can defend a base with only mines, thats just ridiculous... if youre trapped in your base
- buy mines and place it around all base, since you can mine faster than enemy defusing
- You have at least 3 factories, this will draw the little firepower the enemy can throw at you if by chance any of the get past the mines
- Most of your creeps will die inside your base, meaning the enemy wont get gold from it
- You will have more creeps to kills, ergo more money, this will compensate the extra money the enemy gets by owning the extra factories
- Since all the creeps will concentrate inside the base, 1 aoe spell of most tank will get, if not all, most of the enemies creeps. Ergo a lot of money with just 1 spell
- If by any chance the enemy get into the base and both gets out alive, the enemy will have to go back to at least half map to heal, while you heal just there
- If enemy set factories close, they would lose money since you can go out with most tank and hit the factories... and any damage to the factories means the enemy is losing money

With this strat you just wait until you get enough money to buy titan and a pair of frost b4 going out... with this strategy, is almost 100% that you will get titan b4 enemy does

That just make that strategy the most noobish one ever yet incounterable...

Another thing... mines from demolisher should dissapear if player leaves or buy another tank... just like tinkers towers

[ChronicStoned]

wow sure... can't get ur point..

[the truth]

"the mine defuser is completely useless... Just played a game where 4v4 the other team has only their base w/o computer factories and 2 of them has mines and overwhelm 2 defuser"

Lol, atleast someone understands.

"Another thing... mines from demolisher should dissapear if player leaves or buy another tank... just like tinkers towers"

Disagree with this. If you removed the demolisher's ability to plant mines then the demolisher would basically be useless and would have been nerfed further (it took a nerf when the arrow cannon took a nerf). And demolisher mines aren't that powerful anyway. At level 5, it's equivalent to the 2500 small mines.

[the truth]

idea... what about giving the bomb the ability to clear mines with it's massive explosion? It could be a solution / counter to a team mass mining their base.

[GooglyBoogly]

Ok... the mine defuser is completely useless... Just played a game where 4v4 the other team has only their base w/o computer factories and 2 of them has mines and overwhelm 2 defuser

Even though i had Frost tank i didnt have enough hp to blow some by tanking them (which is very difficult considering the other team has weapons too), get back to mid factory, heal and back to tank more mines, by the time i get back they would have replaced the 2 i blew besides another 2 more... the other sets the mines far enough so that defuser cant get 2 at a time... making defuser useless in this situation
...
Another thing... mines from demolisher should dissapear if player leaves or buy another tank... just like tinkers towers

1. Tinker modules do not disappear when the tinker changes tanks - why should demo mines go?
2. If they set their mines so far apart that you cannot defuse two at once, that menas you have a corridor that you can move your tank through safely- just follow that corridor and attack!
3. It is extremely difficuilt to mine all the entrances, if you have air tanks it is pretty much impossible for them to mine their base 360 degrees.
4. For every mine slot above the first, you could just have a gold hull - that will pretty much counter their mines AND give you hp to burn, it shouldn't be difficuilt to run into some bines, then teleport/blink away to a nearby factory to recover and move in again.

Mines are not unbeatable by any times, organised, team mioning vs a disorganised team can win the game. But that is how it should be, organised tam tactics > disorganised every time