Long range = grey world

[Mdk]

If this topic is already well known - ignore it and sry for posting. I am normally not around the forums, sry for that.

I am more a casual BT Player, that's 10 games a week or so. Currently, ppl again rely heavily on long range weapons because the are just so rewarding.

This is not a wine thread saying that long range is simply imba. It is clear to everyone that there are good counters. And a league / arranged team surely has not these problems as ppl work better together to put up a counter.

In casual games, ppl jump on the 1300 train because it is safe and works in perhaps 80% of all cases.

[skip this list if you know about the advantages of high range weapons]
- it is good for newbies, because you stay out of direct danger
- less downtime, more money
- Energy Torpedo aka big green is good for tank killing, creep killing and finishing both
- big green is good at kill stealing and this gives a huge advantage in the early game
- high spike damage (high number of greens or bombarding equivalent) makes hit and run tactics with great damage possible
- long range hits no buildings --> actually this is exactly the way you want it in order to kill tanks --> less targets
- control point killing is damn easy
- the easiest counter to perform against long range is getting long range, too

Again, this is no wine thread! There are enough disadvantages, counters, etc.! That's ok. It just pisses me off that now in pubs numbers of long rangers per side jumped up to roughly 3 per side. People get owned by it and then do it, too.

My point is: People should like all possible weapon loadouts equally - the setups should be equally rewarding. In my opinion, a game is balanced when people use different tactics equally - then it's not always the same boring stuff. But at the moment 6/10 casuals take long range (5 green, 1 bombarding).

Somehow BT nowadays fails to give new and some old players alike nice different weapon tactics to choose from. Long range works just too good and even if you do not win you normally blast the s*** out of most players which is rewarding enough! I have the feeling that this was different in earlier versions.

What's your opinion?

[TKF]

Solution -> pwn it with teleporter and poison magic.

[italyrools]

You cant get either of those in early game.

I find I have the same problem. If the whole other team decides to go long ranged (scouts with bombards) there isnt much I can do. Farming is hard, and the only thing I can do is snipe back.

[lyf590]

solution: if u cant beat them, join them...
real solution -> ive been a long ranger myself and i find it hard to farm unless if i use scout. u can probably outfarm other rangers.
for scouts good luck with them. they are just so powerful if players a pro. sorry i got nothing against it. perhaps u can get a demonlisher with bow?

[Exodus]

Well, I don't think that long range weapons are imba. Before the introduction of the Scout only some Tinkers used them and nobody complained about that.

Like it has been said before, your farming ability is quite limited when it comes to long range. But the Scout nullifies this problem. Since people discovered that, they are trying to abuse it as much as possible. I'm quite sure, that everytime you come to the solution that long range is too strong, a Scout was the one, who was using the weapons.

So I came to the final conclusion, that the Scout has to be nerfed. The planned changes are listed there. I have to admit that I don't know if this will really fix the problem, but I think it is at least a step in the right direction.

[JpOO]

Long range arent imba in normal games. About noob games - yes its the best choice (mines too), but if we will somehow "balance" it in normal\pro games 1300 wont be used at all.

[Mdk]

I think we all agree that long range is not imba.

But it's just so attractive.

I see that the dynamic part of BT is ruined because many ppl throw away their tactics in favor of the generally great-working 1300.

On my wishlist, there is: "Don't change 1300 in the nerf sense, but make the other tactics more appealing so that more ppl start thinking again about what they could do beside long range!"

Any comments on that?

[Carcharoth2]

I see in noob pub games guys with long range often own the others.
You need a bit timing to hide before the energy torpedo, and for beginners it is not that easy.
In pro games you dont get much kills with long range.
The problem is you cant balance all items for every skill level.

The only problem at the moment is, that the scout tank is a bit too strong and used with bombarding rockets he can creep extrem well and in addition can kill enemys sometimes (regarding on their skill mostly).

I think if the scout is nerfed (next version) you will have better chances to play against long range.

And if you have problems against a tinker with long range, you have to play more^^

[horselance]

Scout is really good with range. It runs like hell, regen like hell and creep like hell. +ranged weapon = push players to creep much easier and even kill them.

[JpOO]

"Don't change 1300 in the nerf sense, but make the other tactics more appealing so that more ppl start thinking again about what they could do beside long range!"

My thoughts. =)

[smelly]

Long range is fine in the early game but once you reach the mid game the benefits start to decline sharply. Newbs love it because it is easy but for winning games it is not a very viable tactic as you can't really push a lane effectively.

[italyrools]

I concur. I think it gets even more beneficial as the game goes on. 5 rocket hails can kill any tank in just a few hits, and they can take out creeps fast too. The only problem is that they cant kill towers, which is fine if the teammates can.

[Althend]

Low range rules, don't worry.

[bangyouredead]

Hmmm, I always thought long range was noob and very easy to encounter until recently. Only reason I switched to long range tactics was because of the scout. They match its normal weapon range and it is faster than other starting tanks, so you can avoid getting chased down or stunned. Long range only works in the beginning though, and if youre playing pros you have to switch to preferably short range at about 20 min. Otherwise you just get tped and owned .

[lyf590]

ty for speaking my idea for me

[italyrools]

Low range rules, don't worry.

Your the best.

I think the unit tele of gobby shredder should be increased, or atleast made so he doesnt move forward. By the time that I actually get in range to tele someone, I've followed him close to a bunch of creeps and other players, then I get sucked in towards them even further.

[Morkardar]

Mid- and Earlygame:

1.
There are two problems... you can kill a fed-up short-range guy with longrange.
But you cannot kill a fed-up long-range guy with short range.

2.
Heavy tank counters most of the fast-shooting low and midrange weapons with his armor.
There is no skill really countering long-range 650 dmg per hit Energy Torpedo!
Ghost Tank with Ghosts can counter long range partially with his units...
BUT without coming near a player you cannot get him.

And that is the point.
Less abilities to overcome distance. More abilities to keep distance.

[TKF]

Maybe give weapons which doesn't attack structures a damage penalty? maybe 25% less dmg? Maybe a bad suggestion...

Anyways the weapon ranges is from 555 to 1300. Surprisingly there's no weapons under 1050 range which does have "cannot attack structures" ability.

[Morkardar]

Because tower has 1050 range and not 400.

[italyrools]

Yeha, otherwise you could just sit there and easy snipe towers...