Time for some weapon spring cleaning!

[ycoseth]

I'm always trying new strategies, but I feel like often the weapon selections are often limited by a low variety at many ranges. Generally most players try to stay relatively within the same range and I find myself gravitating back to 1000 range simply because at any price there is a weapon for me, which simply isn't the case for other ranges. I suggest lowering the number of weapons at certain ranges and spreading them across other ranges to create more diversity.

For example, 1000 range has this (non-exhaustive) list:
1111 - Basic Magic
3300 - Swarm Rockets
4444 - Confusion Magic
5050 - Fear Magic
6666 - Lightning Magic
7070 - Ghosts of Doom
9999 - Psycho Magic

If you want to include 950 and 1050 weapons, or upgraded ranges like Laser, the list in needlessly long. Just from that list alone, there are 4 1000 range weapons within 2600 of each other (Confusion to Ghosts of Doom) which is simply unnecessary. Let's look at extremely close range weapons:

660 or less:
3000 - Ice Cannon
5555 - Poison Magic
6750 - Flamer
11000 - Blaster Cannon

Once again, you can include base Laser, but it remains that if I want to play very close range (let's stay a CP defender) I do not have a short range weapon to start with, I have to get a 750 range and then buy shorter weapons later, putting me less consistent on my ranges.

850-900:
2000 - Basic Cannon
2222 - Tornado Summoner
3500 - Fire Arrows
7500 - Ion Cannon
8888 - Fire Magic
25000 - Psycho Laser

This is the opposite of the short range weapons, with 2 good starting weapons in that range and a good 2nd weapon in that range, but then no mid-game weapon and 2 end-game. Short range has 3 mid-game weapons, but no starter or end-game until late-late game in the Blaster Cannon

On the other hand, the glut at 750 and 1000 is insane. From 950-1050, there are 12 options (not including Laser or Fan of Knives), many of which are rather redundant (Molotov Cocktail and Grenade Launcher? 950 range, only 250 cost apart.) 750-800 has 8 options, from cheap Glaive Cannon to the Darkness Cannon

My idea is too remove some of the less-used and redundant weapons to create more options for other ranges.

For 660 or less:
Make Grenade Launcher cost 1500 and 600-650 range, rebalancing damage obviously, so that close-range has a starting weapon (allowing them to progress to Ice Cannon or Machine Gun, depending on the range).

For 850-900:
Make Lightning Magic 888 range and 4500-5500, rebalancing damage. This fills the gap between 3500 Fire Arrows and Ion Cannon/Fire Magic

The biggest complaint is actually the Confusion/Fear/Lightning/Ghost Magic chain, it's completely redundant. Confusion is 4444, Lightning 6666 and both 1 sec shots, Fear is 5050 and Ghosts 7070 with .33/.44 casting time. So there are two pairs of the same weapon type, both 2k apart, that all lie within 2600 of each other and it's not needed when other ranges are hurting for decent options.

What do you think?

[DerSatan]

really good, i very much appreciate this.

is started a similar topic a while ago, but i only managed to have the blaster cannon to be short ranged (which is in fact very good, thanks at this point). you maybe want to have a look at it, i have an attachment which makes clear what weapon range/cost is in this game.

http://btanks.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=979

(remember, blaster cannon has changed)


but again, i really like to have a short ranged starting weapon and some diversity in mid game, where 1000 range weapons dominate the shops.

GJ

[TKF]

Well, weapons I really don't like is

Stun Magic: I don't buy it just for visual reasons
Soul Stone: It's junk IMO.

What about

• Incinerator (5000)
  
  Projectile: Doom spawn anim
  Range: 300
  Cooldown: 0.36
  Damage: 400
  dps: 1111
  
  Upgrade cost: 2500
  Bonus cooldown -0.12

A very good extreme short range weapon. I think this can replace soul stone. Or this weapon can replace a higher class weapon with even higher damage.



______

It's a good point that many weapons have quite similar range. Perhaps some of them could use some range adjustments. Well, in the 7.55 version and older, nearly almost all weapons had 999 range, so this is not as bad as 7.55 version. (I know, cuz I've looked at it)

[ycoseth]

I did read your post before, and I think it was very good, the differences are even more extreme at specific ranges. For example, I love the Machine Gun. However, it's the only 700 range weapon. If I want to build around the Machine Gun, I have to move to 750 range and risk certain ranges causing the MG to not fire. Why not move it up to 750 or, even better, down to 650 so that it meshes better with the new Blaster Cannon and Ice Cannon.

The two most common ranges seem to be 750-800 and 950-1000. If let's say 2 from each range were eliminated and added to 600-650 and 1300, then there would be more variety and less complaints about everyone getting the same weapons.

[Exodus]

If you really want to change the weapon ranges, it would be best to make clear suggestions, which weapons should be changed and to what range. I think it would be best, if you'd make a comparison, how the weapon were earlier and how they should be. Including a little overview how this would change the arrangement of the weapons.

In case you want to know the new dps, you can use this formula to calculate the new damage:
damage = (4 * gold cost * fire rate * damage factor) / (0.06 * range)

Or when you want to change to fire rate:
fire rate = (damage * 0.06 * range) / (4 * gold cost * damage factor)

The damage factor is normally 1, it just changes when the weapon has a special target restriction (etc. only heroes: 0.75, only creeps: 1.75). But you dont have to calculate this for the suggestion.

I can't work with vague suggestions about some weapons which should be changed. Also, this makes it easier for others to see what would change. There are always players who don't want "their" weapons to be changed. Its easier to discuss such changes when everyone knows what you want to do.

[DerSatan]

i like to have the grenade lauchner changed. with its cost of 1750 its barely bought, its just not effective to start with this weapon. also, i want a short range start weapon, too.


-->

grenade launcher

cost: 1500
range: 600 (or 650)
cooldown: 0.75 seconds (as it is now, im fine with that)
damage: according to formula (too lazy to calculate it now)

wether it should be upgradable or remain its air-only mode, i dont know. both is good.

yeah, thats most important in my opinion.

[TKF]

When I calculate, I do it this way

DPS = (GOLD COST / 15 * 1000) / RANGE

then firerate.

FIRERATE = DAMAGE / DPS

[ycoseth]

In case you want to know the new dps, you can use this formula to calculate the new damage:
damage = (4 * gold cost * fire rate * damage factor) / (0.06 * range)

Or when you want to change to fire rate:
fire rate = (damage * 0.06 * range) / (4 * gold cost * damage factor)

Okay, I looked at the weapons and targeted 5 rarely used weapons that I find to be redundant or extraneous and the suggestions I would make to them, then show the overall spread of different weapons.

Grenade Launcher
Old Cost: 1750
New Cost: 1500
Old Range: 950
New Range: 600
Old DPS: 92 dam, .75 fire rate = 123 DPS
New DPS: 167 dam, 1 second fire rate = 167 dps

This gives low range a starting weapon. Light Tank, Helicopter, Anti-Grav and Scout can all use it, , and it will cause the flood of common LT/FoK starts to hopefully branch into those who want 750/950 and those who want 600. The 950 range is not lacking as there is the Molotov Cocktail at 1500, and 750 range gets the 1500 cost Glaive Cannon. This new weapon opens up a new avenue for start without taking from existing strategies. I believe this would primarily bolster the Anti-Grav specifically, as Anti-Grav is excellent with 750 range or less and it gives AG players more flexibility with their choice of weapons.

I would recommend changing the upgrade from Air to a standard upgrade of 1500 cost, I do not know how you calculate that but that would allow for quick (but not instant) upgrades on all of the starting tanks.

Confusion Magic
Cost (4444) held the same.
Old Range: 999
New Range: 888
Old DPS: 166 damage, .66 fire rate = 297 DPS
New DPS: 335 damage, 1 second fire rate = 335 DPS

A fairly minor change, all things considered. I simply dropped the range and adjusted DPS. Currently this weapon sees little play because a mere 600 more buys Fear Magic. I moved it to 888 to create a viable 2nd option after Basic Cannon/Tornado Summoner in the 850-900 bracket. Instead of purchasing and upgrading a 2nd Tornado Summoner, a player has the option of buying a better weapon.

Soulstone
Cost (4800) held the same
Creep-only removed.
Old Range: 850
New Range: 1300
Old DPS: 212 dam, .32 fire rate = 663 dps (creep only)
New DPS: 246 dam, 1 second fire rate = 246 dps

I often see people spam Energy Torpedos and I think that is because there is no other option for sniping. Rocket Hail is a similar range but spreads it's shots and costs over twice as much as the Torpedo. I think this bridges the gap for ET players by giving them a higher cost upgrade that fits the style. I think they will also like it because of the slow reload of the Torpedo there is a 2.5 second gap for players to get away with minimal health. I think the 1-second cast time will grant them a few extra kills and make the 1300 range somewhat more viable, and it's by removing a weapon that in 9 months of playing Battle Tanks, I haven't seen used more than once or twice.

Plasma Fragments
Old Cost: 6000
New Cost: 5000
Old Range: 950
New Range: 600
Old DPS: 463 dam, 1.1 fire rate = 421 dps
New DPS: 833 dam, 1.5 fire rate = 555 dps

Another unpopular weapon, likely because of the glut of 999 range weapons in the cost range. This would be the natural successor to the Ice Cannon, a powerful hit that would become a favorite of CP defenders and a good reason to bring creeps/buy a barricade etc etc when assaulting a point knowing such a strong weapon is in play. I think this would likely be the MVP of the 600 range arsenal and fill the gap between Ice Cannon and Flamer while also giving the range different firing speeds (1 sec, 1.5 sec, .1 sec, respectively)

Lightning Magic
Cost (6666) held the same
Old Range: 999
New Range: 888
Old DPS: 444 dam, 1 second = 444 DPS
New DPS: 250 dam, .5 fire rate = 500 DPS

This was the hardest for me to do, because I love the Lightning Magic when I play 1000 range, but honestly the Ghost of Doom cost a mere 400 more, it doesn't make sense to keep it. I was worried about this being too similar to Light Fantastic, but I think it's enough of a difference. The DPS is the same, but this fires quicker, has 88 more range, and is a single-target firing. With the Tornado Summoner being such a slow cast, the Confusion at 1 second, I thought I'd drop this to a quicker cast to vary the firing speeds a bit. Like Confusion, its overall a small change but one that will be important in the end.

And two final changes:
Machine Gun
Cost (2500) held the same
Old Range: 700
New Range: 650
Old DPS: 48 dam, .2 fire rate = 240 DPS
New DPS: 51 dam, .2 fire rate = 255 DPS

Poison Magic
Cost (5555) held the same
Old Range: 555
New Range: 666
Old DPS: 367 dam, .55 fire rate = 667 DPS
New DPS: 278 dam, .5 fire rate = 556 DPS

These two aren't as important as the first 5, and I think the Poison Magic change might be unpopular but here's my reasons: Poison Magic and Machine Gun are the only two standard weapons at their respective ranges (technically Magic Cannon at 777 is too, but there are plenty of 750 ranges that mesh with it.) so I think it would streamline the game more if they were brought into more of a fold. With the range reduction on the Blaster Cannon to 660, I think there is a potential for a 650-666 range build, albeit it won't be as fleshed out as the new 600 or 1300, but it's better than having two weapons that are essentially stand-alone.

The new Plasma Fragments has the same DPS as the old Poison Magic for less than 500 more, so there is still a weapon for that role, and Machine Gun gives 650 a starting weapon, provided you start with the Scout, or play at a 4k start. If there is much contention to these two changes, then these do not have to be added, but look at the weapon progressions before you knee-jerk and defend the Poison Magic.

At 600:
1500 - Grenade Launcher
3000 - Ice Cannon
5000 - Plasma Fragments
6750 - Flamer

A solid progression with each weapon 1500-2000 from the last weapon. It has a good starting weapon, then a 2nd weapon, mid-game and late-game.

At 650-666:
2500 - Machine Gun
5555 - Poison Magic
11000 - Blaster Cannon

While this is not fleshed out yet, it is now a viable subset, whereas before it was 3 weapons with unique ranges.

At 850-888:
2000 - Basic Cannon
2222 - Tornado Summoner
3500 - Fire Arrows
4444 - Confusion Magic
6666 - Lightning Magic
8888 - Fire Magic
25000 - Psycho Laser

This is the most bolstered of the new ranges, putting it on the level of 750-800 range and 950-1000, as far as options and clean progression goes. The added Confusion and Lightning Magics provide a clean transition up to Fire Magic while providing a stylish alternative to Fire Arrows. Also, no two weapons are too close to one another in cost, other than Basic Cannon and Tornado Summoner, both of which are good starting weapons, allowing for Scout, Heli, and Light Tank to start at this range.

At 1300:
2700 - Energy Torpedo
4800 - Soulstone
6000 - Rocket Hail
7777 - Death Magic
12000 - Acid Cannon

The addition of Soulstone fits nicely in the progression, at 2100 more than the ET but 1200 less than the Rocket Hail, while also being different in style from the two weapons on either side of it. Hopefully this cuts down on spamming of Torpedos since there is now a solid option in the 2nd weapon/mid-game column.

And just to show this would not hurt the existing builds, here are the two most common ranges:

750-800:
1100 - Multi-Bow
1500 - Glaive Cannon
2200 - Fan of Knives
3333 - Magic Cannon
4000 - Plasma Waves
6000 - Light Fantastic
6000 - God's Hammer
8050 - Infernal Rocks
15000 - Darkness Cannon

950-1000:
1111 - Basic Magic
1500 - Molotov Cocktail
2000 - Light Plasma Gun
2200 - Fireball Cannon
3300 - Swarm Rockets
5050 - Fear Magic
6060 - Frost Magic
7070 - Ghosts of Doom
9999 - Psycho Magic
20000 - Photon Bombs
30000 - Frost Laser

So, what do you all think of the changes?

[RedNova]

I think you have a few good ideas, but I oppose two of your choices for one single reason: you took ONLY in account range and forego completely special properties.

SoulStone: You did not see it, but there are those you could use an anti-creep weapon better than a multi-bow in mid and late game. Creeps-only weapons are not just for farming, but also in number-thinning situations. These situations are RARE, granted, but if you remove one anti-creep weapons (from 3 to 2), this is practically paramount of saying creep weapons only benefit to farm early game. I would propose to make soulstone a bit cheaper (and less DMG, and same distance as multi-bow), and frost a bit costlier. This way, those who want to destroy creeps mid and late game would have a choice, instead of having two anti-creep weapon within 1200g of each other. And why not make Soulstone upgrade instead of switching to heros? That way it would be consistent with the two other weapons. There are enough anti-hero weapons around.

Plasma fragments and grenade launcher: I rarely buy those weapons, but when I do, it is for a very specialized purpose: anti-air weaponry. Against a flyer, these weapons rocks and add a very needed counter to flying vehicules. Rarely does the launcher fit that need (at start, only DPS is enough to counter a helicopter), but later on it is possible to neutralize a pesky flyer with plasma fragments. And unlike the antiaircraft-gun, which becomes totally useless when there is no flyer anymore, plasma fragments have two modes, which you can switch to fit the situation.

In this situation I propose this: if plasma fragments is to be relocated and so is grenade launcher, then make the bombs and anti-aircraft gun switchable between normal and air or ground (respectively). That way we still have a weapon for a specific situation which does not become totally useless depending on later tank choices by enemies (albeit less effective). That implies that these weapons do not target only players anymore. Besides, at 6k each, plasma fragment and anti-air guns are literally copycats, but one plain better because of switch properties.

******************************************************************************************

On a side note, while playing with the "switching" properties of some weapons, why not a weapon that "switch" between two different class ranges? For example sake's:

Fear Magic (Normal)
1000 range
---
Fear Magic (Close)
650 range (with adjusted damage accordingly)

You can't upgrade such weapons (I never do personnally anyway), and they would fit into two range niche at once.

[DerSatan]

i like every suggestion of ycoseth, except the ones to soulstone and plasma fragments. rednova gave the reasons.

but i do like the grenade launcher suggestion 8)

[ycoseth]

I think that overall, the "switching" ability is weak and honestly contributes to the weapons not seeing play. I like your suggestion of making the AA Gun and Bombs switch from normal to specialized, I think that would alleviate the problems with those specific weapons. The switching ability of the Grenade Launcher I find to be pointless. Early on, the extra DPS I don't believe counter balances the need for a variety of strategies. A smart Heli will just go somewhere else, and then you spent money on a weapon that can't be upgraded while everyone else upgrades their Fireballs, Fans, Basic Magics, etc etc.

The Soulstone is really unneccesary. As is, no one really uses it, the marginally difference between it's creep-killing ability and say, Fear Magic, is almost never enough to justify it's cost considering it's inability to hit heroes, and that was BEFORE the .45 nerf of it. You say that by removing it I am declaring creep-killing to be an early game option only. I haven't declared that, the players have. I left Frost Magic in so that there is a late game creep killer (like, if you are pinned in your base by a Tinker massing factories, for example.), but there is no reason to keep the Soulstone when weapons are needed elsewhere.

The Plasma Fragment argument seems valid, but again, I think the switch ability hinders the weapon, not helps it. I also think the changes proposed will boost the use of less-played tanks. The Anti-Grav and Thunder Tank are both short-range tanks, and both rarely see play because of the lack of solid short range options. I think post-changes, starts like the Anti-Grav / new Grenade Launcher will be a strong counter to the Light Tank / Scout / Heli builds while weak to the Demolisher, which gives more variety to the starting options.

The Thunder Tank is probably one of the 3 least-seen tanks in my opinion, right down there with the Ghost Tank and the Guard. The Thunder Tank has a strong aura but rarely can get a solid suite of weapons that fire within the aura. The new rank of 600-666 range weapons fits perfectly with the 650 range of the TT aura, so that a Scout/Machine Gun could transfer early to a TT and become a strong early presence before the first Heavy Tanks hit the board.

[RedNova]

Well, I can't pretend to know the exact percentages of tank use in Btanks, but I fall smack in ALL the categories you listed, as I actually play a lot of thunder and ghost tank and very often upgrade my multi-bow to soulstone when I can afford it (exception: when i play close quarters). Guard less often, because it is literally a support tank, ineffective if you do not have partners that use it's unique advantages.

Color me unorthodox, because that's what I want to be (I remember playing a lot of Dhalsim and Zangief at Street Figther in my local arcade, because I grew sick of seeing only Ryus and Kens).

Point is: I like Btanks because there are options to go besides the most common builds. I like the fact that there are indeed weapons and items seldom used, and so am against removing them because few use them. Just adding more of the same at different price points is no reason to remove the rest.

As for the "switching" argument, you do not convince me at all either. Fact is, I rarely upgrade weapons, because the gain is linear like every damn weapon there is. So cash I save for not upgrading goes for better weapons. Besides, I find that upgrading weapons you are sure to sell later on is a waste of cash. Therefore, "switching" weapons are a LOT more benefic to my style of play. Unfortunately, there are very few.

Furthermore, least used start tanks are a choice in gameplay rather than starting weapon in my opinion. You can't really min/max in btanks, especially since weapons are made equals in term of value. I've seen very sucessful 1k range grav-tanks and long-range thunder tanks. It's sad to say, but maybe the fact that you see few tanks of a particular sort is related to the fact that most btank players do not innovate and stick to the build they think is best for them (or best of all there is, as I often heard before proving them wrong with a sub-par one). Sure, there are better tanks for some builds, but not to the point that a tank is made only for a certain kind of range.

Suffice to say that I don't agree that adding a grenade launcher for close range will drive the use of grav-tanks up.

[ycoseth]

Haha, I'm all about Dhalsim and Zangief, and trust me I'm looking to specifically avoid more of the same.

I love the TT, and the Shredder, and the Anti-Grav, all of which I feel are underused. Did you see that I thought these changes would HELP the underplayed tanks? LT/BMx2 isn't going anywhere, but now maybe Anti-Grav/Grenade could counter it. Heavy Tank isn't going anywhere, but now Scout/Machine Gun -> TT might be an alternative, or those LT/Tornados could go to Goblin Tank with a solid 850 range base to counter the "vanilla" LT/Fireball -> HT, which I equate to Ryu/Ken.

Honestly, you are the first person I've heard defend the Soulstone, um, ever. Can't please everyone, but I think these changes are overall for the best.

[RedNova]

Well, I guess the best of both worlds is a bigger selection of weapons in certain range (with a correct gradation in prices), and a few special weapons for specific situations or goofy players like me. But that would mean more weapons (and an additional shop), and I doubt the map makers will commit to this just because I said it.

Well at least I hope to have spoken for the silent minority in this matter :-)

[Prog]

I do completly agree to RedNova concourning Soulstone (I use it against factorys - quite nice), grenade launcher and plasma fragments. I think that a change of machine gun and poison magic is not necessery as well, I even think that no weapon needs to be changed, except the late game long range weapon (acid cannon), which is too weak. I like the weapons as they are now and most of them can be usefull, or at least are playable for fun in publics (like rock catapult). Changing them in a way that there are equally short, mid & long range weapons is not the best way in my opinion, becouse some weapons are more usefull in certain game stages. For example long range is good in the early game but gets weaker in mid and useless in late game. Short range is in the early game really bad, in mid ok and in the late game the best choice. Having 33% long range weapons for 5k+ gold, which won't be bought, doesn't make sence to me.

[ycoseth]

I would love some input from TKF, Exodus, Bob666, and others on my suggestions.

Today I had a perfect example of why I suggested the range changes. Today I played a public game, the host set it to 5K. While most grabbed 750 or 1000 range weapons, I decided to get Anti-Grav/Fire Arrows. Fast forward to later in the game I have about 6k and looking to buy a new weapon. Guess what there is at 850? Nothing. More Fire Arrows. The next 850 range weapon is Psycho Laser, and my nearest option was Light Fantastic at 800 or Ion Cannon at 900 range. The only 888 range Magic is Fire Magic. I wished there was the new Confusion and Lightning Magics to make a consistent build out it instead of spamming the same weapon over and over again. I ended that game with 3 Fire Arrows and a want for a variety of weapons.

I would have never guessed in a thousand years that of my suggestions, the SOULSTONE would be the most defended. So, let's drop it from the table. I still don't get the Plasma Fragments argument since the AA Gun is still available if you desperately need a specialized weapon, but even then I see people choosing standard weapons all the time since that minor DPS increase vs. air isn't worth constantly switching so you can creep.

Are there any other objections besides Soulstone and Plasma Fragments? Can we put this to a vote to see if it can make it to .46?

[ycoseth]

I think that a change of machine gun and poison magic is not necessery as well, I even think that no weapon needs to be changed, except the late game long range weapon (acid cannon), which is too weak. I like the weapons as they are now and most of them can be usefull, or at least are playable for fun in publics (like rock catapult).

This seems a bit short-sighted. Of course nothing NEEDS to be changed, the game will continue to run fine, the weapons aren't crashing the game or anything. But prior to 8.00 most all weapons were 1000 range, they have since been changed so clearly a variety of weapons is considered somewhat important to the designers. The fact that certain weapons are only playable against weak opponents in public games should alert you to the fact that the weapon isn't very good. I'm not advocating getting rid of all specialized weapons, I'm only trying to shuffle around less-used weapons at saturated ranges to spread the wealth a bit.

The Soulstone might change, but the Frost Magic is still there for less than 1500 more.
Plasma Fragments might change, but AA Gun is still around.

This won't horribly cripple at strategy or hurt any metagaming you try to do, other than shifting focus to similar weapons in the archetype (like SS -> Frost). However, it ought to give way to a new variety of strategies, specifically in the 600-666 range and 850-900 range, two ranges that lack a solid progression for seemingly no reason.

[Prog]

The fact that certain weapons are only playable against weak opponents in public games should alert you to the fact that the weapon isn't very good.

Well, changing every weapon which is not good in tough late game stages will result in something like having only weapons with ~600 range from 4k+ goldcost. Every other weapon with similar gold cost has a huge disadvantage and is never bought in late mid game and late game, except from players which I do not regard to be strong bt-players. That's just a fact which can't be changed, becouse short range weapons do more damage and it's easy to get close to your enemy with demon stun(s) and teleporter.

[ycoseth]

To say that the only used weapons above 4k cost are that of 600ish range is foolish. So in all your Battle Tanking, you never see Fear Magic? Light Fantastic? Psycho Magic? Medium/Long Laser? You claim to use Plasma Fragments then say only 600 range weapons would see play and that's simply wrong.

1000 range is still the most versatile because one can siege a base from numerous excellent positions. Many of the hills to siege the Light Force base are 950-1000 range from the Rocket Towers, giving a person a solid natural barrier that is easy to retreat from. 600 is only useful for hunters (Anti-Grav or a Teleporting Shredder/GT) or for CP defense.

To say that the addition of Grenade Launcher and a 5000 cost 600 range weapon (which is similar to the current Poison Magic, which I suggested a change to) would change the fundamental nature of gameplay is silly. Poison Magic is popular but it is not the de-facto choice starting a 5k+ cost.

[Prog]

To say that the only used weapons above 4k cost are that of 600ish range is foolish. So in all your Battle Tanking, you never see Fear Magic? Light Fantastic? Psycho Magic? Medium/Long Laser? You claim to use Plasma Fragments then say only 600 range weapons would see play and that's simply wrong.

1000 range is still the most versatile because one can siege a base from numerous excellent positions. Many of the hills to siege the Light Force base are 950-1000 range from the Rocket Towers, giving a person a solid natural barrier that is easy to retreat from. 600 is only useful for hunters (Anti-Grav or a Teleporting Shredder/GT) or for CP defense.

To say that the addition of Grenade Launcher and a 5000 cost 600 range weapon (which is similar to the current Poison Magic, which I suggested a change to) would change the fundamental nature of gameplay is silly. Poison Magic is popular but it is not the de-facto choice starting a 5k+ cost.

You have to read more carefully. I said the thing about Plasma Fragments in regard to public games.

I saw Fear Magic, Light Fantastic (even some good players buy it), Psycho etc but these weapons are all bad in comparison to ice cannon, poison magic, flamer and blaster cannon in late-mid and late game (especially in the demon-heavy games nowadays). If my opponent buys one of the longer ranged weapons I just smile and think to myself something like"freewin". This shouldn't be taken offensively, but that's just on what I experienced in intern games with BuG, Btff, 1a2b, etc. You claim that poison isn't the first choice 5k+ cost, but you're wrong: it is, together with flamer.