[8.43] Scout too strong?

[horselance]

Anyone played with scout and felt it is too strong? I played once and seen it is too strong. It is a money machine. And very hard to kill. It is faster than other basic tanks, cannot be rocketed and summons tower to defend itself. Ultimate is a good finisher and manipulate is not bad too.
And all these goodies are only for 500gp.
Maybe it must be more expensive eg. 700-800gp.

[DerSatan]

i love the price of 500, please dont change it! it allows troop command, mines and basic magic+iron hull as start equipment on a tank other than tinker.

but i also think he farms money quite (too?) fast. maybe his creep cannon should be nerfed or replaced with a weaker skill.

he also got much HP for free. 500 gold, 750 base HP. 650 base HP would be fine i think.



edit: ok, its only 700 start hp. i'd appreciate a reduce to 650 anyway.

[Gammagulp]

i think there are several imbalances - ...

1. Creepcannon - 510damage lvl3 950 range ???? (what the hell) - what about 120dam per shot ?
2. Tower - pls 1/2 HP and at least 2/3 seconds build up time
3. Spell block/ HP regen - pls change it a bit the spell block - maybe -200damage per lvl and not complete block

A heavy tried to nuke me, but i just blocked it. (i cant understand that)

[TKF]

Interesting. I tried the scout in a normal game and ended up getting a sky fortress after having heavy tank. It cost 500 gold and gives 700 hit points, which is something. It has only 300 less hp than light tank.


Also it's creep cannon is very imba, it farms extremely well. Maybe give it 1200 range and 135 dmg pr level with 1.5 sec cooldown? My thought is: Longer range, less damage. At the current rate, it gives a player HT in just about 10 min easily!

Towers provide excellent damage shielding in addition to some creeping, however horrible against a player with only 1300 range weapons.

Runes skill are ok.

I have not much personal experience with defense system skill, but if it blocks a HT shot and takes no damage from it, it's to imba! I'm fine with stun block, but not damage immunity once in a while from shots.


I haven't tried the net yet, but it's lethal with teamwork.

[ycoseth]

How does the blocking work? I'm testing it now and it seems like I'm still taking damage or stunning. Do I have to activate it or is it doing it automatically?

[Gammagulp]

The problem i see is another one - you all see the scout as a starting tank, but think forward.

I played with some mates scout with startweapon - then iron hull - 2nd weapon - GOLD Hull

U can get a 7700 Hp fast Tank with net stun, 8800 HP Tower, who did about 800 damage against creeps and blocks damage.
a Poisoneous skill, which take 25% current Hp if an enemy takes a changed healer and a skill, who blocks 1 shot stun and damage + 5 HP regen per level.

You cannot skill everything at a time, but if you stay with your scout and just use hulls and weapons - it is possible to fight against heavy tanks easy.

[horselance]

Yes thats what i did with it. Gold Hull makes it too strong, towers also have 9k at lvl 4 (i think), just put a tower and you dont take much damage. Buy close range weapons and stun enemy. HT have little chance vs it. Even Sky Tank have little chance. Because at start up it earns too much and build up too quick.

[ycoseth]

Nevermind I figured it out. Very cool tank, I think it's fine so far, perhaps a move from 750 to 650 or 700, but honestly it's still super fragile as is.

[Exodus]

The damage of the Creep Cannon has just been calculated like the other weapons, and because its Creep Only, it has 200% more damage. And about the towers, less HP?

And to the spell block, its not possible to partly block an ability, maybe increase the cooldown. The spell block works automatically, you can click it, but thats just a waste.

[ycoseth]

I'm going to play a couple pugs tonight and let you know what I think about the Scout. Honestly I don't see how it can be broken toooooo bad. It's a weapons-driven tank since it's skills can't kill anyone (cough HT cough). I like that it's a cheap counter to the HT with it's defense skill and will vary the starting tanks up since many Multibow strats will be tested with the Scout. Even with maxed out regen, it's 1/3 as much regen as a regular Repair Robots, so the regen is mostly negated. I think it's a very very cool tank but I don't see it being unbalanced, although the tower could use an HP tune down. But I think with the tower capping out at 6k and the tank hp at 700, it's fine.

[Prog]

At first: I don't think anyone is able to judge about imbaness after just 1-5 games. You need to try various possible counters to argue reasonable, which takes far more games. So my thoughts are only tendencies I saw:

Defensive System is perfect as it is. Why is it not imba? - Becouse the ones who emphasize on the alleged imbanes just don't try anything new, they only skill rocket as they've done before, if it doesn't work it's "imba". Defensive System DOES NOT BLOCK the 2nd rocket; Defensive System DOES NOT BLOCK Artillery Shot; Defensive System DOES NOT BLOCK Jet Wave; Defensive System DOES NOT BLOCK Swarm Rocket Skill; etc - AoE Spells are not blocked which creates a huge weaknes, you just have to adjust the way you skill and play one time without your rocket (or lower level).

Watch Tower got too much hp, as allready mentioned. If you reduce the hp a lot there is no need to make the dmg lower, becouse they can be killed easily.

Watch Towers Collusion is to big and should be smaller or 0. I've seen Scouts blocking the conrol point or even arresting themselves in mid near the goblin shop.

Btw: The game gammagulp mentioned: The reason the scout was so strong wasn't only "imbalance", rather bad play from the other side (including myself) and a bad tankstrat in mid. We had at start 2 scouts with multibows and 1 heli with multi bow in mid, so the opponent scout could creep so heavily without getting attacked. Later we got just 1 heavy in mid, which can't handle the scout that easily becouse one rocket is blocked, with a 2nd heavy or another start we would have dealt with it much better I guess (and I saw it in other games, where the imbalance wasn't that huge anymore. A bit still, but not that much.)

[Althend]

The tower has to much hp and appear too fast.

[horselance]

If you ask me, Scout Towers must be invulnerable. So it dont matter how much hp they got. And they cant be spawned like "damage blocker" ability. But must have less duration smth like 40 seconds.
And also collision must be little (dont know if it should be none), I blocked myself near goblin shop with only 1 tower.
Creep Cannon has same damage like other creeper wepons. As TKF said it can have more range - less damage with same cost wepon dps.

@ ycoseth
I didnt understand why to buy multibow? I started game with a basic magic, after lvl5 i was killing 80% of creeps in 3 allies and our creeps. (It will be disturbing to have a nearby Scout, because it gets all creeps!)
And what can a HT do if it cant rocket you? You will have same hp with a gold hull. Rest is your weapon choice and skill.

@ Indeterminismus
In a teamplay it is different. It wont protect second rocket. And it wont protect vs AoE spells, but most of finisher abilities are rocket like/target-to-enemy abilities. And in 1v1 combats you need them.

But all other things aside, it makes too much money without trouble. Put a tower and stand back, watch the yellow numbers over creeps It seems too easy.
I'll play with it until Indeterminismus finds a counter tactic. (if he can)

[DerSatan]

yeah, i thought about making the watch towers invulnerable, too. but i dont really like the concept of invulnerability in general. but indeed, the watch tower can absorb too much damage against normal weapons, especially when the scout is playing hulls.

what about making the watch tower invisible, combined with a much lower HP (maybe 500 base HP per level).
this would result in no damage absorption, unless the enemy gets detector stuff (for tower bounty and worse scout creeping). this would also make a scout vs. scout fight more interesting .
invisible watch tower should have a much lesser collision size and maybe a little bit more recognizable attack animation.





i cant really understand the other arguments that says the scout is useful in mid- or even endgame.

-he's fast, but his max speed is 450 too, so he wont be faster than most other tanks for long.
-every common tank got a damage spell (mostly AoE) which doesnt trigger defensive systems.
-the scout itself got no single damage spell (manipulated runes dont count, no experienced player will take a rune under 25% HP while playing vs scout)
-generally, HP of hulls is more expensive than HP of tanks, and cost inventory slots

[VanHelsing222]

I think its ok, maybe a bit less HP for towers but other skills are okay. And it isn't very difficult to kill a Scout... there is one very effective method, using a chopper with longerange weapon.
@DerSatan this tank is very good also in mid and endgame: you put in 2 upgraded gold hulls and good weapons then the enemy has no chance

[DerSatan]

2 upgraded gold hulls? so lets say i got the demon tank.

i skill banish 1 level, rest lava shot and ultimate. if we have the same weapons, i can effort a speed upgrade for equal tank value.

now i trigger your defensive systems with banish and you get 2 hard damage spells. when the stun ends, you can trap me in the net. how imba.

[horselance]

Banish+Lava+Ulti cost more mana than u got. U will need extra mana:)
And u can fight at range of banish, and web stun is too long at later levels.
But it is not so suitable for endgame. But good for mid game. 2nd hull is not smart move.

@VanHelsing
Yes it is good tactic vs Scout. But even this way you cant stop him earning money because you cant hit towers with long range weapons. And think about he can play long range too.
Last game a guy was playing with 2k long range weapons. Lots of them.
While he bought a 6k long range weapon (maybe upgraded also) I bought Acid Cannon. He killed me more then i killed him. But it was no problem. I earned more money than him.

Scout is a dirty guy. It can play with 2 basic hulls, 1-2 long range weapon, and in 20-30 min it will have billion dollars.

[Gammagulp]

@DerSatan
How do you think to get your demon tank - if your answer is Scout - thx ^^.
If not you will get problems creeping enough against a second weapon and later a hull - before you get the demon tank.
When you got demon tank you have maybe lvl 10 --> lvl 4 lavashot 1450 damage, Ulti dont know - 1600 ?
If you use them against a scout, wo kills your trops before you reach him - you have no support, but a tower with maybe 6.500 HP at that time and enemy creeps.

How do you think to get the rest Hp with your startweapon and much slower speed ? --- 1400Hp missing!
While the enemy regenerates +15Hpsec. ^^

The next problem you have is, creeping with demon tank + start weapon is difficult, while the scout is looking at the golden numbers appering nearly every second.

The logic answer is, that you fall behind more and more every minute till the scout has 6000+ Weapon and updated gold hull - if he then goes for demon you have no chance. -->This is just what "could" happen - maybe you are right and this wont happen, but my experience is, that this tank should go later for bigger ones, and then has much more from erverything.

[Exodus]

Hm, I think the most imbalanced part of the Scout are the Watch Towers. Expect them (and only them for now) to be nerfed in the next version.

[ycoseth]

After playing 6 games with the scout against a variety of different starts, I think that the tank itself is balanced, only the tower needs fixing, whether it's cast time, lower hp, invisibility, whatever. Everything else about the tank is fine.

People are so caught up in LT/Heli that they are stuck in a strategic rut when looking at the Scout. Early on, many things combat scouts well. Energy Torpedos, for example, are the absolute bane of a Scout. They can't survive two of them, so they have to tread carefully and one unlucky hit means retreating or even death. Demos and Anti-Gravs tool all over Scout due to their low hp and lack of defense against the AoE skills. Demos especially can use their catapult and mines to great effect, even with the watch tower detecting some of the mines.

The Scout player makes a choice between health and weapons, if they go Fireball Cannon they are very vunerable to team tactics or just a straight up slugfest. If they go Iron Hull/Basic Magic they are effectively a Demo or Antigrav with a different skill set. I don't think the Scout is a problem, the only issue lies in the tower itself, and even that I don't think is too amazing, if you run to the mid island and drop a tower the first wave of creeps will kill it, even with your support fire and other creeps.