Discussion about BTT2012 details

[olivercamel]

Hi,

Because we have decided to make the BTT2012, now it is time to discuss some details about the tournament. If we can agree on most aspects, I will further define the BTT2012 rules.

Below I will list some ideas in my head. If you don't like it, or have better ideas, feel free to post yours. If you are thinking some topics I forget to mention, please also post it.

I will only mention the parts we want to change comparing to last BTT. For those parts I don't mention here, you may assume they will be the same as in BTT2010.

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1. 4v4 instead of 5v5

Having 4v4 instead of 5v5 will make the team smaller, make the game faster. It is also easy for team leaders to create/organize smaller teams. And meanwhile we can have more teams for the BTT. I think we can all agree that BTT2012 will be only in the form of 4 players vs. 4 players games.

2. Team Size (4~5 players per team)

In BTT2010 we allowed 5~8 players in a team. We allow 3 extra players because (1) this gives more different combinations to a team, you cannot predict who in your opponent team will play the next game. (2) also if someone cannot make the time, the extra players can cover for it.

But it turned out the 8 players is too much. And some of them was too inactive for the team. So this time we will allow less extra team members. For now I am thinking each team must have at least 4 players, and no more than 5 players. 1 player extra only.

3. Winner Prize

The winner prize for BTT2012 will be similar to last time. The winner's name will be mentioned in the loading screen. And the winner team will get money provided by me as prize. The money won't be too much cuz i am not that rich :) But it does help to make people thinking seriously for the games.

Last time the prize was 50 EUR for 1st team and 30 EUR for the 2nd team. In the next btt, I am thinking to give the prize of 100 EUR for each member of the 1st team. But only for the 1st team, not for the others. I don't know if this can be a good idea. But it does help to save my time to manage less money transections.

4. Tournament System

Last time we used double elimination. This is a fast system but has issues. E.g. the teams in the winner bracket is having less amount of games than the teams in the loser bracket.

This time I am thinking to introduce a game system similar to the football world cup. The tournament will be organized in 2 phases.

Phase 1 is the group games. Say if we have 16 teams, there will be 4 groups, each group 4 teams. The 4 teams within the group will play against each other. And the top 2 teams will go to the 2nd phase. Phase 2 is single elimination, we will have 8->4 games (or 1/4 final), semi final and final games.

During the group game time, the point system is also introduced. A win earns 3 points. A lose earns 0 point. If a game is draw, both teams earn 1 point.

A game is draw if it cannot finish within 1 hour, which using the clock in the BT map up right cornor.

If 2 teams have the same point, the rank is decided by: team kill-death. If it is still the same, the rank is decided by team kills. i.e. if 2 teams have the same points, the team kills more and dieds less will rank higher. If 2 teams have the same number of delta kill - death. The team who kills more rank higher.

In the 2nd phase, there will be no draw games. Each game has to play till the end.

[Prog]

Draw after just 1 hour...all games will be draws!

At least 1:30:00 (or remove draw completely).

[Tez.Sick]

yeah...1 hour is not that long ^^
no team would "-giveup" ,just plant mines,use net for enemys or buy 100 repair robots

i think draw after 2 hours is much better,so the game have a chance for a completely titan war

[UnifiedDoom]

Some people brought up in the other thread that we should try to avoid a situation in which all of the "alpha players" are on the same team, maybe we could do a single draft with those players as team captains to decide the teams? (the problem is not all players post on forum).

I also agree that time limit should be at least 2 hours.

I won't bring up the whole US/Asia team problem with the prize money because it is so unlikely that either of those countries will win the tournament after all .

[LIoOoOoIL]

Titan wars are really annoying, also games who take around 2h and more.
so maybe find us in the middle and take this draw option at 1:45?

for this "2 teams with the same points" shouldnt count the result of the game, where they played against each other? And by a draw already in this game, maybe a final game, where the winner step into the next round.

[olivercamel]

If we make 4 teams in a group, introduce "draw game" is needed. Otherwise, if a team already loses 2 games, the 3rd game for them will be meaningless, because they will not go to next phase regardless they win or lose in the 3rd game. I worry in that case some team may not even show up. If we don't have "draw" game, then we shouldn't have the 1st phase - 4 teams play in a group - at all. But this results in only single elimination, i.e. if a team meets another pro team at early time, they lose the chance to play further. If we make 4 teams in a group, each team will at least play 3 games with 3 different teams.

Another reason to draw the game if it doesn't finish in the limited time, is to force the winning team play more aggressively. Therefore less defense + camp tactic. Even if a team gets all cps, they still cannot relax, but focus on destroy the base. I think the game will be more fun to watch, also there will be new base attack/defense tactic used in BTT.

This is also why I suggest to use team K-D as 2nd factor to rank the team, but not the win/lose relationship. If a player knows that the K-D will matter the result, he/she should focus on the play every moment.

And about a proper time limitation:
In BTT2010, the average game time of 24 games is 75min. Half of the games end within 1hour10min. And please consider that was 5v5. In case of 4v4, the money received is a lot more than 5v5. And the game will be determined earlier. So I do think most of the games can be finished within 1 hour. And if we force the game to finish in 1 hour, maybe we can have 2 games in a row between any 2 teams. This makes a registered team play more games. 2 hours for 2 games in a row is not that much, isn't it?

After all, the draw game will be only used during group phase. In the 2nd phase all games must go to the end as usual. The 1st phase is more like to select 2 better teams from the 4. I think good teams will make it anyway under this 1 hour draw game rule. Also, generally speaking the competition level is relatively lower at the group phase, than the 2nd phase. So it is better not to give it too long time, from a perspective of watching the games.


@UnifiedDoom
I still think we shouldn't restrict who will be in which team. i.e. if a people can find 5 alpha players and make them play together, then so be it.
But first, there are a lot more than 5 alpha players. And 2nd, a team is not simply sum the personal skills, the chemistry between the members is also important.

For US/Asia teams they will receive the money converted into their local currency, which is equivalent to 100EUR.

[progg]

Hm, i just thought about mini league. Everybody plays with everybody. Top 8 teams goes to playoffs - 1st place with 8th, 2nd vs 7th etc.
That would make this game live a bit longer, and could make comunity stronger.

[LoveComesAgain]

i think 2 teams should get prize like 1team 70-60 and for 2 team 30-40 because if someone will have imba team its will be unfair for others

[FirePhoenix]

I prefer a draw after 1:30:00 in the group phase, like a football match
And maybe there should be after 30-45min a 5minute break?

Edit: And I prefer at the 2nd phase a Bo3...

[olivercamel]

Hm, i just thought about mini league. Everybody plays with everybody. Top 8 teams goes to playoffs - 1st place with 8th, 2nd vs 7th etc.
That would make this game live a bit longer, and could make comunity stronger.

This will result in too many games. Because we can only make games at weekends, and the referees are limited, too many games will make the BTT too long.

We want to make sure the BTT finish in about 6 weeks.

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i think 2 teams should get prize like 1team 70-60 and for 2 team 30-40 because if someone will have imba team its will be unfair for others

I think I will stick to the plan that 100EUR for 1st team only. For 3 reasons, (1) it will save my time to handle the bank transections. (2) it may encourage more top level player to sign up for the games. If the prize is low, some of the good players may think like "i play good, but i don't care, it takes too much effort to make a team". But now they might do it because the prize is higher. (3) The final game should be also more attractive to watch, cause only the 1st team will get prize.

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I prefer a draw after 1:30:00 in the group phase, like a football match
And maybe there should be after 30-45min a 5minute break?

Edit: And I prefer at the 2nd phase a Bo3...

1:30:00 is really too long. Most 4v4 game can finish in 1.5h i believe.

I still feel like 1h. In this case we can make 2 games between 2 teams at 1st phase already. 1h game, 15 min break, then another 1h game. The points, and team kill/death decide which team is better. What do you think?

I think it is possible to make bo3 at 2nd phase. Maybe not 1/4 final. But bo3 only for semifinal and final.

[LIoOoOoIL]

then at least 1h and 15mins, if not 1:30.
oliver, u wanna really cut the whole fort-inf-titan fights?... in my mind its not fair for the team, which is pushing and dominating the map and the other team can defend only/no risk to push (and maybe loose the HQ), cause they know it will end after 1h in a draw.

And the team, which is defending, still -can-(not in the usuall case, but it can) have a better KD ratio!

[olivercamel]

OK, 1.5 hour for a draw game in the 1st phase.


The BTT2012 game system will be:
(1) 2 phases: group phase and single elimination phase.
(2) In the group phase: 4 teams in a group. 1 game will happen between any 2 teams. So in total 6 games in a group. And each team plays 3 games in the 1st phase.
(3) In the group phase: a win earns 3 points, a lose earns 0 point, both teams earn 1 point if the game is draw. The game is draw if it doesn't finish in 1.5 hour.
(4) In the group phase: after 6 games in a group, the 4 teams are ranked by points. If more than 1 teams have equal points, the they are ranked by overall team kills minus team deaths. And if still the same, the teams are ranked by overall team kills. And if still the same, an extra game will be arranged. At the end, the top 2 teams will go to the next phase, single elimination.
(5) In the single elimination phase: if we have 4 groups, there will be 8 teams in the 2nd phase. In this case the 2nd phase will have 3 rounds. 1/4 final, semi final and the final. In we have 2 groups, there will be only 4 teams in the 2nd phase. In this case we will have 2 rounds, semi final and the final.
(6) In the single elimination phase: the 8 team will be arranged like Group A1 vs Group D2, Group B1 vs Group C2, Group C1 vs Group B2, Group D1 vs Group A2. In case of 4 teams, it will be similar.
(7) In the single elimination phase: there will be no more draw games. All games have to play till the end no matter how long it is.
(8) In the single elimination phase: all games in the semi final round and the final round will be BO3 (Best-of-3). It means 3 games will be played and the team who wins 2 games will be the winner.

Please take a look at this system. If most people can agree on this we will use it.

[Althend]

Can we ban smoke? ^__^

[gozo1985]

seems good.
oliver whats your plan for the drawing?
i mean its possible that the "best" or top teams will meet in same division. is there any kind of preselections for the teams? favourites in one pot - underdogs in one pot - weak teams - unknown ?

[olivercamel]

Can we ban smoke? ^__^

Smoke is quite popular in BT league, Why do you want to ban it?

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seems good.
oliver whats your plan for the drawing?
i mean its possible that the "best" or top teams will meet in same division. is there any kind of preselections for the teams? favourites in one pot - underdogs in one pot - weak teams - unknown ?

I am still thinking about it.

Plan A is to just using full random seeding/drawing. This is simpler.

Plan B is to calculate the average ELO of each team. ELOs are taken from BT league. For those who doesn't play league, their ELOs will be 1500. For those who have multiple acc, the highest will be taken. For the top 4-8 teams of last BTT, those players will be added 10~100 points into their ELOs.

After we get average ELOs to each team, the top 8 team are marked strong teams, and the other 8 normal teams. Each group is randomly assigned 2 strong teams and 2 normal teams.

Do you have any better ideas?

[FirePhoenix]

It's not a good idea to take the ELO from the BT-League...just I can then lose on purpose to get a low ELO with my ACC's to get an easier group...
Can't we do like this:
The 1st and 2nd team of the last BTT get 100 ELO
3rd and 4th get 80 ELO
5th-8th 60 ELO
All others are get 50 ELO

Edit: Just the players of these teams.

[jonnipunn]

HI,

we have also talked about an other tournament and it is a very good idea. Beertanks was not a top team but it was fun thou. I suggest to make it 4 vs 4 despite of 3 vs 3.

[Exodus]

Can we ban smoke? ^__^

I intend to release an updated map for the tournament, with some bug fixes and balance changes. Smoke will receive a nerf.

[olivercamel]

It's not a good idea to take the ELO from the BT-League...just I can then lose on purpose to get a low ELO with my ACC's to get an easier group...
Can't we do like this:
The 1st and 2nd team of the last BTT get 100 ELO
3rd and 4th get 80 ELO
5th-8th 60 ELO
All others are get 50 ELO

Edit: Just the players of these teams.

Accually you are wrong.

If you lose on purpose to get a low ELO, say if all your teammates does this, your team average ELO will be low. Then your team will be marked with normal team, not strong team. As a result you will be in a group with 2 strong teams. That's harder to play.

If you want to get into an easy group, you need to get a high ELO on purpose, and this is not that easy for everyone.

I think we can all agree that the good teams from last BTT will be considered as a factor to be marked as strong teams.

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HI,

we have also talked about an other tournament and it is a very good idea. Beartanks was not a top team but it was fun thou. I suggest to make it 4 vs 4 despite of 3 vs 3.

Hi jonnipunn, good to hear from Beertanks again. We have decided to make 4v4 games for btt, not 3v3.

[progg]

OK, 1.5 hour for a draw game in the 1st phase.



(2) In the group phase: 4 teams in a group. 1 game will happen between any 2 teams. So in total 6 games in a group. And each team plays 3 games in the 1st phase.

(4) In the group phase: after 6 games in a group, the 4 teams are ranked by points. If more than 1 teams have equal points, the they are ranked by overall team kills minus team deaths. And if still the same, the teams are ranked by overall team kills. And if still the same, an extra game will be arranged. At the end, the top 2 teams will go to the next phase, single elimination.

Ad2.
I suggest to play double matches - i mean 2 games 1 after another with 10min break. As we all know there are some games when bad random (like 4scouts in 1 team) can ruin game. Making it 2 games would lower to probability of random result of a match.

Ad4.
I suggest if more then 1 teams have queal points, then they should be ranked by result of a match between these teams instead of k-d amount.