Game impact of sides versus mid

[Prog]

I find it is always was and still is an unspoken truth that public games are most of the time decided by side lanes. You all know the games in which one side lane player gets an advantage and then keeps on punishing the opponent. 10 minutes later she/he is at the cp and the midplayers need to constantly teleport, otherwise she/he just kills the player at the cp and buys troops to capture the cp. Very often that works and the game is pretty much decided already. Of course, the game drags on, but the base gets sieged and noone can handle the player 1on1 anymore. As a sidelaner she/he has the most farm in game and on top has been fed with kills and turrets. Only a big mistake that loses the cp again brings a chance, but most of the time even that does not matter anymore.

On the other hand if a midlaner gets fed pretty much nothing happens. You cannot pressure the cp early in a 3v3 situation and you cannot outfarm much either. You can get an earlier tank, but that's not even close to the benefit a winning side laner gets.

As a player who likes midlane dynamics way more than sidelanes I find this very unmotivating. I feel like if I want to win, I have to play side lane. But I don't really want to. That's nothing new (pretty much all the time only side-laners were at the top of the ranking, including myself when I was still good enough). Even when the community was more active this was true for public games, but there were at least the private games in which noone would lose lane horribly (usually). Nowadays there are no private games, so all that's left is league, and that is no fun place for someone who wants to midlane.

Now I wonder whether your experience is similar? And what is a possible way to change the game impact of the different lanes?

One thing that certainly helps a little bit is to disable players to buy troops at the opponent's cp, but side lanes will still be more important i think. I don't know what to do about it.



PS: If you think this is induced by a depressing series of games with winning mid and losing sidelanes you are to some extent correct, but I do think there is a real underlying problem that needs to be fixed someway.

[ckibibi]

I find it is always was and still is an unspoken truth that public games are most of the time decided by side lanes.

unfortunately I dont play "private" but I think Its the same even in your private games. Seing the 2 latest Btanks tournament the dynamics is the same on skilled games. THe only difference imo is that teams try to even the lanes : matching players on lane. And in mid game a good teamspeak and teamplay help more in def. and there are more ganks.
In pub its harder to get people work well in synchro to gank or def. So a player with gold and xp advantages will mostly lead his team to victory.

And sorry to bring back this subject but as HB was seen by some intern players as imbalance, the fact that the xp and gold on mid from creeps is not equal to lanes is the main unbalance mechanic this game has from the first version I played.

But I think you didnot fix that bacause in private you tend to even the chances : how many times I see in those skilled games the lane player coming to mid as soon as he reac lvl 10 with a heavy to ultimate the "poor" mid players who are stuck at level 8 or 9 with a tier 1 tank. and one of the mid going lane to get more xp and gold.


So to give you some feedback on this :
try to even the gold and xp. More creeps on mid?
less creeps on lane?
try to change the path on lanes : mid is good to play at 3 or 2 but lanes are worthless if you are more than 1 because of the number of creeps and the few space to move(especially when you are ground tanks).


And to confirm : yes from the beginning of the league if you want to get high elo and stay high elo you have to play lane and win or at least counter the top elo from ennemy team.

[BENNIE.FM]

I think your right to an extend but for me its not the same when i used to play for elo and i had 1650+ elo i used to always go lane because i felt i had the best chance to carry my team (and plus avoid tinker and poor team work in middle)

Now there are a few cases i played a game were the lanes were almost even one player dominated the other player but could not manage to push enough to get tower, the other lane 1 passive player meant that there was no push even with advantage and it allowed the other team to camp the strong lane player minimizing any advantage.

Assuming the highest elo player is the one dominating the lane which can happen i often find if you get pass the 30 minute mark things tend to even out due to mid players now farming tanks such as earth hunter and demon and even saw 41 min frost the other day.

Me and galadion played same team the other day and our middle got screwed so bad we could not control the feed in middle (The middle players were just as strong as us).

I would almost agree with you to the point of just saying yes but i think its changed abit middle players influence well balanced games however a really weak lane player vs a strong lane player means that led to the situation above i have played around 10 games in the last 2-3 weeks and i think that i have not actually need the lane being dominated to the point it allowed the team to win.

I don't think ruining the classic 1vs1 battle or changing xp is the way to go and think its the way to go, and i personally think from my game experience latley the games were so balanced or had so many decent players in them no lane was taken easily and the first control point tower went down at 37 minutes.

I played games were i dominate lane but then due to my high elo all the middle players are not so good that they get pushed and usually leads to me loosing my advantage middle due to an overfeed middle i think it can work boths ways.

Its hard because scenarios in every game can be very different in my view it would be nice to add 2+ creeps in middle but thats it middle has many others way of creating advantages for team.

I just hate how it seems easier to play bottom in dark force, and easier to play top lane in light force.

[LIoOoOoIL]

Its not a unspoken truth, its more a tolerated fact.. ; )

Hm, how about somethink like an supporter-expboost-item:
with area effect, more allies = more exp - but also a higher cooldown then (so still more advantage in mid) - just a rough idea : x

There was already a exp area extension, or something like that - wasnt it?. would it make sense to increase it again a bit?

[BENNIE.FM]

Its not a unspoken truth, its more a tolerated fact.. ; )

Hm, how about somethink like an supporter-expboost-item:
with area effect, more allies = more exp - but also a higher cooldown then (so still more advantage in mid) - just a rough idea : x

There was already a exp area extension, or something like that - wasnt it?. would it make sense to increase it again a bit?

Well if alex remembers well enough we play vs some tmg players they camped alex so hard all they do is watch alex.......and our other lane player never pushed but they never bothered to look middle and it was gg in mid.Game on lanes were quite balanced as we had an extreme pro laner with a really passive player who never pushed for 30 minutes xD.

If changes are made i don't want them to be drastic im finding games with high kills deaths and assist in middle are leading to some players being quite strong i think some small changes would be nice relating to xp and gold but nothing drastic .....i played a game in middle i out crept laners and xp in ranked kills assist made it possible.

[gozo1985]

I recognized, with the new version its easier to get gold in mid. (More Assists, more sprees, more gold). We have to figure that out with many games, but imho the new version equalizes lane and mid a bit. we will see.

[Flygplan]

Well the most common setup is 1 3 1, one top, three in mid and one at bottom.
This means that a kill at top or bot completly stop farming at that lane while a kill at mid may cost some creeps but useally not as much as at a lane, not to say their is less creeps per player at mid then at a lane in 1 3 1 setup.

A death at one of the lane even in early game set that player back 300-350 gold atleast, 200 gold for kill, 75 for port and rest lost from farming meaning lanes can very very quickly become one sides, each kill make it even easier to get next kill, and the only other way may be camping which can cost alot of farming, both way mean that one team will get a much stronger player then the other team which makes it very hard to fight later on not talk about the exp difference to.

At mid a death may still cost over 300 gold but because of 3 players the gold advantage is not as noticable, also the nature of mid becoming a forrest of towers mean that the creeps probably still will be farmed and the exp will not go lost, its also harder to push at mid then it is on a lane.

So the problem is that a lane player may not be much stronger then a mid player but that a lane player that dominate another lane player will creat a kind of vacume, one team get a stronger player and the other get a much weaker one that is a big problem.

Some things to consider:
Remove the cost for cp teleport early game to make early death not as punishing and to make it easier for players to coperate between lanes and mid early on, 75 gold early game is not cheap.

Mid could maybe get some more creeps but then you have to consider that most of them may go to a tinker which may be overfeed very quickly.

Make values for tanks that gotten killed alot drop much lower and faster then of now and the opposite of tanks making kills allowing for easier comebacks.

[Max]

Hi,

Well this is a subject really depending of each game. But sure there is a fact : mid get less income than lanes in 9/10 games (laner have bigger tank, more creeps kills, a really bigger level etc.).

Maybe the only way to balance it definitely is to make games 4vs4 instead of 5vs5?

This thread have been discussed some times ago but this could be the only solution. Or to make 3 times more creeps in mid than lanes (but assist would make mid more fed than lanes?).

[omefisto]

I think that you can not add any more to the Foreign Ministry Denies, because so many of them. and about the game 4x4, the game will not be as full-fledged as 5x5, but you can put the host bot ranked 4x4 10.00 to 18.00 (Moscow time), all the same this time, little people, and ranked not collect people, but I think maybe 8 people collect. qualified for Play al l not interested because there is a lot of newbies

[Max]

Well after playing some games in middle I think that middle is as much important as sides.
If a player in a side feed a lot, it's certainly impossible for this player to swap with someone from mid (less creeps, less farm etc.). But this guy have to hold lane as long as possible and if mid get fed well in late game it makes the difference.

Each lane have his advantages and disadvantages : lanes get more farm from creeps and mid more farm from tank kills (in general).

Example : lanes a both 5-15 : 10-30 for both (dark-light force).
In the same time mid work well and balance to 30-10 so teams are even 40-40. If lanes from dark are outfed (creeps + kills), mid from light is outfed too. That means 3 players fed (dark mid) vs 2 players -+ more fed (light lanes). Then it just all depend on team play on the game and how dark mid can keep an advantage on light mid and help lanes by -+ camping.
From some of last games I played in mid (here is one example : http://league.btanks.net/game.php?gameid=41044) light force mid was so fucked up than their laners (who got the advantage early) couldn't make their team win.
Another game I played we won mid after ~15 min (while lanes were feeding/outfed).

It depends...

[RaptorXI]

I recognized, with the new version its easier to get gold in mid. (More Assists, more sprees, more gold). We have to figure that out with many games, but imho the new version equalizes lane and mid a bit. we will see.