Average game length - options for change

[Exodus]

Since I was also interested in how the average game length developed over time, I asked eSVau to provide me with some data, which he did.
This is what this data looks like:

# of games	Average time in s	Version
10960	3824	872c
1522	3438	873
9028	3893	873c
9235	3819	874
408	3544	875b
752	3782	875c
1	2140	876b
3556	3651	876c
41	3789	877b
536	3552	877c
1441	3404	877e
1594	3757	878b
93	4171	879b
974	4171	879c
1046	4127	879d
126	4361	880c

I was a little suprised to learn, that is has been going up for a long time now, with the latest version at its peak. I guess this calls for some action. How drastic this action will be and in what direction it will go, will still have to be determined. Use this chance for your input guys!

[Wupti]

out of curiousity is it possible if you can check games where no one left the game? at least before 1h mark

[eSVau]

out of curiousity is it possible if you can check games where no one left the game? at least before 1h mark

Games without leaver

# of games	average time in s	version
2202	3664	872c
227	3659	873
1839	3899	873c
2570	3974	874
134	3785	875b
249	4016	875c
1	2140	876b
1227	3799	876c
9	4014	877b
185	3674	877c
478	3527	877e
519	4060	878b
32	4077	879b
358	4332	879c
386	4257	879d
41	4706	880c

[Prog]

[...]

I was a little suprised to learn, that is has been going up for a long time now, with the latest version at its peak. I guess this calls for some action. How drastic this action will be and in what direction it will go, will still have to be determined. Use this chance for your input guys!

One possible explanation is that it has to do with the fact that people rarely buy 3k-6k gold tanks anymore. The uncalled airship speed nerf plus being a tank so heavily countered by storm tank made it pretty much disappear completely (because the speed was the thing that made it useful). Furthermore the power of strength pack was popularized making it very easy to go start tank -> lategametank without being punishable by the burst tanks of the midgame (thunder and heavy). Distributer being a start tank with a build in counterspell against Thunder and Heavy spells is also problematic. The result is that very early on people have huge amounts of hp with little damage, creating passive play.

I think that it is pretty obvious that currently the best way to play is skipping 3k-6k tanks and we need to change that somehow.

Currently my suggestions would be to:
-Nerf strength pack and negator pack heavily.
-Redesign the Storm Tank to be less of a hard counter to Airship.
-Redesign the distributer W.
-Change the Airship speed passive back (and the drones).
-Buff the Alchimist.
-Make netlauncher goldcost scale with game (or just more expensive overall).



Nerfing strength pack and negator pack makes it less cost efficient to go start tank -> demon (or similar).

Storm tank and Airship changes promote fast paced tanks that create chances to gank side lanes and capture cps in midgame. These are also tanks that can win due to good movement which is something I miss currently, because the mid-lategame is mostly dominated by tanky, immobile (without teleporter) ground tanks (earth, hunter, demon). A Storm Tank change is also needed for this, because, as far as I know, it is suicide to get Air Ship in side lanes when the opponent is still on his starting tank. He'll just change to Storm and destroy you with a cheaper tank.

Alchimist is just overall weak and fits into the tanks that need to be promoted.

The distributor W destroys the ability to punish tanks that save for a big tank and needs to be changed, just like the old spellshield on scout had to be changed for the same reason.

Netlauncher nerf is an indirect nerf to axe and an indirect buff to (mostly) midgame air tanks that are underrepresented. Thereby it also promotes faster and more dynamic gameplay.




PS: Should we split the topics into one dedicated to the bounty system and one to gamelength overall? They certainly are connected, but not the same.

[Wupti]

Furthermore the power of strength pack was popularized making it very easy to go start tank -> lategametank without being punishable by the burst tanks of the midgame (thunder and heavy) [...] The result is that very early on people have huge amounts of hp with little damage, creating passive play.

+1 The fact steel hull>gold hull is just ridicilous since it's harder to save for a gold hull early game.

I think that it is pretty obvious that currently the best way to play is skipping 3k-6k tanks and we need to change that somehow.

Currently my suggestions would be to:
-Nerf strength pack and negator pack heavily.
-Redesign the Storm Tank to be less of a hard counter to Airship.
-Redesign the distributer W.
-Change the Airship speed passive back (and the drones).
-Buff the Alchimist.
-Make netlauncher goldcost scale with game (or just more expensive overall).

Air tanks in generel are in my opinion unfavoured, they have little crowd control and are easy targets.

A Storm Tank change is also needed for this, because, as far as I know, it is suicide to get Air Ship in side lanes when the opponent is still on his starting tank. He'll just change to Storm and destroy you with a cheaper tank.

I'm not sure storm needs a nerf. Airship can battle storm in lane, but needs health points against the hard nuking potential a storm tank provides. Maybe the gold cost of storm should change to 5000. since a counter tank should be more exspensive than the tank it counters
heavy < goblin
goblin < earth
earth < sky
sky < demon

Games without leaver

# of games	average time in s	version
2202	3664	872c
227	3659	873
1839	3899	873c
2570	3974	874
134	3785	875b
249	4016	875c
1	2140	876b
1227	3799	876c
9	4014	877b
185	3674	877c
478	3527	877e
519	4060	878b
32	4077	879b
358	4332	879c
386	4257	879d
41	4706	880c

47 is high but still I'm quite convinced it should be higher, is this including qualify games or excludedly ranked?

[eSVau]

47 is high but still I'm quite convinced it should be higher, is this including qualify games or excludedly ranked?

ranked only

[Prog]

I did not mean to straight up nerf Storm, but rather to make it a little less "counterish" (if thats a word). Like change the spells in a way to have a little less air bonus damage, but buff the basic damage a bit (like: change Q to 200/300/400/500/600 with + 25% against air). And maybe change or remove the Air-Cannon? The idea is that it should be worse against air (but still a soft counter), while being better against ground to before, so that it becomes a more general pick instead of a straight up counterpick.

And I agree that it probably is a good idea to make it more expansive than Air Ship.

[Wupti]

I did not mean to straight up nerf Storm, but rather to make it a little less "counterish" (if thats a word). Like change the spells in a way to have a little less air bonus damage, but buff the basic damage a bit (like: change Q to 200/300/400/500/600 with + 25% against air). And maybe change or remove the Air-Cannon? The idea is that it should be worse against air (but still a soft counter), while being better against ground to before, so that it becomes a more general pick instead of a straight up counterpick.

I'd like to see this aswell. Why I find storm so strong at the moment is mainly because of the E ability. It is way to easy to exploit this skill.
The problem with this skill is
A) It deal double damage to air
B) Homing ony activates against air tanks

since ground tanks cant move everywhere like air tanks you can simply put these mines over obstacles (trees, shops,you name it) where ground tanks cant drive into it and by doing this be 100% sure your mines will always be very effective. Especially because these mines lasts for a very long period of time, has great aoe and slows while they are 100% sure to hit an dmg a lot.

I think dev team definately needs to nerf this skill in someway.

[ckibibi]

Imo, I agree with Prog on some points :

the negator pack : too strong and too easy to build as strength pack gives you the survivability (or the strenght) to survive heavy thunder airship and mostly all tanks around 3k to 8k (sky tank is the limit imo). So you can save for hunter or demon or earth straight with little to no risk. and then a demon or earth can camp with not a lot of dps prolonging game. those tech makes air pick a bad option most of the time as demon (which has got some buff and it was needed) can kill any air with little dps only with its burst. so less air which means less movement overall in game (gank at side, push base..)
main point is that you can save for demon from starter tank while building a very powerfull item. and at 30 when you get demon you cant really attack as you ll need more dps and move capacity (like speed or tp) but you can camp to def very well and farm on all the airship tha fly in the sky. making this strategy a safe eaysy (demon is one of the easiest tank to play) and campin one.

nets can be nerf too but I think it is mainly the combo net plus axe launcher which is imbalanced regarding the price of thos items and the variety of tanks that axe can hit. Maybe make axe not able to hit a tank which got net?

But disagree on storm :
storm imo is fine the way it is. I am not pro with it and It is not that easy to kill airship (it is very good vs airship but it is squeeshy too and a heavy or a thunder can do great vs it). I like the fact that it cost only 4k it can force changes on the start tank like raider, medivac or heli (and maybe make the game more diverse).


So if need of changes to lower game nerf this negator pack or to be more precise the way to build it as strenght pack is the main reason for this tendancy (imo).
I dont want nerf on tanks more than the one make on demon with the 8.80, it is not needed.

last thing maybe you could make creeps stronger than building? (so creeps will push faster if no tank def the lane?) no idea how to scale it to avoid too strong push, but I think that creeps should be able to dammage towers more than they do now, especially as game goes on (upgrade can give better bonus to creeps and less bonus to towers?)

Thanks,

---

one last thing : w spell from distri is too strong too (make a dmg cap like the first burst armor) indeed with little cd you can save you friends from the heavy rocket while retreat and so they can save easier to demon or hunt making the pick of heavy a litlle sensless.

[omefisto]

if you want to play game fastly, you can play on royal mode it is more interesting then league mode )

[Wupti]

Storm right now is too strong. The fact that you don't know how to take advantage of that doesn't change it

I think the time you are netted should be reduced.

[LIoOoOoIL]

Another note, regarding strength/negator-pack etc. etc.
How about completly restrict/delete the remaining 2 slots (Repair in Towers) for the last 2 Base Laser Towers (i guess not in generell for all Towers, since the Tinker Abilitie)? Its still a huge sideeffect for prolonging games. There are Mechs to repair Buildings (which u can at least eliminate), isnt this enough.

OT:
And the most annoying part are still leavers/dcs. (any thought about this "-draw" option?) I even would like to see a harder punish for early leaves and DC´s without Gproxy, but since u cannot really comprehend the main reason (PC/Power crash, real life issues, its sadly wouldnt be fair at all)

[psycodiver]

One logical reason that time per game is increasing is that the game is being mastered by more players.

Skilled players verses other skilled players results in longer games.

[Tez.Sick]

Dunno who wrote it before in other thread, but fact is:
more people buy demon (or other ground tanks ) = less air tanks in use which fly over map from lane to mid / mid to lane and care for more actions and confusion.

Sure i hate airshit and sky tank, but more i hate long games, maybe we should (like discuss in other threads) change demon tank skills (decreasing some) or increase some airtanks with more (team) useful skills?

[Wupti]

Dunno who wrote it before in other thread, but fact is:
more people buy demon (or other ground tanks ) = less air tanks in use which fly over map from lane to mid / mid to lane and care for more actions and confusion.

I think you refer to progs first post in this thread.

P.S.

One logical reason that time per game is increasing is that the game is being mastered by more players.

Skilled players verses other skilled players results in longer games.

this made my day

[Max]

The fact is, as you say Tez, demon is a lot used now... So it's impossible to play with air anymore (well impossible is maybe too much, but let's say almost impossible w/o feeding) vs anti air tank and cheap nets.

And since the new bounty system give more opportunities for comebacks, I'm not against LioiL idea about removing slots in towers. So much games could finish 20 min sooner just because of repairs in towers.

About a draw command, I like this idea. But again, there are so much trolls playing that this would ~ never be used unfortunately due to them. If a draw command is made up, it could be put in a way like this : draw can be used after 1h30, need 100% votes to be effective between 1h30 and 1h45, 90% between 1h45 and 2h and so on.

[Exodus]

Alright, this time I'm taking or internal discussion back to the public again, because I feel that as much feedback is needed as possible this time.

Some changes in the last versions piled up and created a somewhat unwanted effect. Here are some ideas we came up with, to deal with it:

Since one main point was how mid game tanks were somewhat out of the current meta game, I'd suggest some of the following changes.

Make hulls more expensive. Not by much, lets say from 1250 / 2500 / 5000 to 1500 / 3000 / 6000 gold. This way, tanks become more gold efficient in comparison.

Negator Pack: In this case I'd probably go with the option of switching the Strength Pack with the Power Pack in the blueprint. This way Negator Pack actually becomes a lategame item and you can't just start saving for it after 15 min.

Net Launcher: Prog suggested, that you could make a skillshot item out of it. So you actually would have to aim, before you shoot. I wouldn't want to make it too hard to hit, but I can see it working out, while maybe also making the item a bit more interesting. This might go hand in hand with a change to a permanent item, but I'm not sure about that yet.

Axe Launcher: This item does not really have much to do with the problem presented here, but since people have been bothering me about it for quite some time now, I'll just present my latest idea: make Axe a bouncing weapon. It would work in a way, that it deals less damage against a single target, but about as much as now against two.

Storm Tank: I think I'd actually go with the higher price for the tank, along with some tweaks to its numbers and mechanics, to make it fit better into its new place.

Air Ship: not really sure here right now. Maybe with the other changes, it will balance itself out?

Demon Tank: I'd go with a change to the stun here. Prog suggested reducing the stun against air targets. Maybe I'll go with that or maybe I'll do something different, but this will be the general direction in which I want to go.

[Max]

I won't react to all the things you said because of a single reason : this looks good. We've talked about demon stun in another thread some times ago, axe launcher too, negator pack etc.

I just want to react about hull price, and another change which goes with it : tanks armor. This idea seems good to me because of this change :
Now that tanks armor is 0, the only way to upgrade it is some expensive packs or flags in the map am I right? Forgot earth spell too.

Then we see more players playing starting tanks far in-game, because since changing the tank just upgrades hp (and not armor), they prefer get 5k hull than 5k tank. So with a higher hull price, maybe they'll prefer get tank than hull. Which goes to the way people will prefer buying tanks than hulls (in a first time).

This seems really good since there are some tanks we almost never see anymore played : architect, +/- both goblin tanks (since demon is so much played) etc. so people would maybe get other strategies with other tanks than only boring 1h10 copter or 1h10 medivac.

[eSVau]

I just want to react about hull price, and another change which goes with it : tanks armor. This idea seems good to me because of this change :
Now that tanks armor is 0, the only way to upgrade it is some expensive packs or flags in the map am I right? Forgot earth spell too.

In bt: armor hasn't reduced magic damage before 8.80. All weapon and spell damage is magic damage. This number was used for (extended) requirements, nothing else.

This has changed with 8.80 and it seems it was necessary due wrong assumptions about armor, now it really does represent damage reduction

[ckibibi]

First thanks for feedback on your discussion.

Make hulls more expensive. Not by much, lets say from 1250 / 2500 / 5000 to 1500 / 3000 / 6000 gold. This way, tanks become more gold efficient in comparison.

good thing to do, I have 1 question does hull give armor in 8.80 (sorry I didnot pay attention to this while playing)? if it does great, if it doesnot I think it could be a good idea to make hull a hp +armor bonus item like +1 for light +2 for stell +3 for gold or something like that.

Negator Pack: In this case I'd probably go with the option of switching the Strength Pack with the Power Pack in the blueprint. This way Negator Pack actually becomes a lategame item and you can't just start saving for it after 15 min.

good idea too. I got another suggestion for strenght pack : can you use it for the other blue print the damage reduction one?
other question : does Prog suggestion about not allowing weapons to fire while invul will be implemented too?

Net Launcher: Prog suggested, that you could make a skillshot item out of it. So you actually would have to aim, before you shoot. I wouldn't want to make it too hard to hit, but I can see it working out, while maybe also making the item a bit more interesting. This might go hand in hand with a change to a permanent item, but I'm not sure about that yet.

I like the idea, but I fear that this item wil be less used. Already underused now when fighting sky fort, only good players sacrify a slot for it or are able to use mech to do this.

Axe Launcher: This item does not really have much to do with the problem presented here, but since people have been bothering me about it for quite some time now, I'll just present my latest idea: make Axe a bouncing weapon. It would work in a way, that it deals less damage against a single target, but about as much as now against two.

good stuff too : I think it should deal the normal dammage to the first target and the bonus dammage (cause it is ground only) to the other(s?) target. So it still remain a normal weapon 1v1.

Storm Tank: I think I'd actually go with the higher price for the tank, along with some tweaks to its numbers and mechanics, to make it fit better into its new place.

will it goes with hp buff as it will cost more?

Demon Tank: I'd go with a change to the stun here. Prog suggested reducing the stun against air targets. Maybe I'll go with that or maybe I'll do something different, but this will be the general direction in which I want to go.

reduce stun duration to 2, maybe 1.5. demon is supposed to be anti air, and it has a special skill for it wich slow air ( ithink its enough) and with the buff to ulti which draw units (which is kind a soft stun) It really dont need to be that power full against all kind of tank. gobo stun is 2.5 but only ground, hunter is up to 2.5 (i think ) but it is easier to escape (seeing animation and speed). rocket of heavy is slower and easier to avoid with tp. but the demon stun goes fast and straight to any tank.


Ty,