Long range = grey world

[riC]

2.
Heavy tank counters most of the fast-shooting low and midrange weapons with his armor.

WRONG !

maybe it should be written in the tooltip that only creeps are affected.

[italyrools]

2.
Heavy tank counters most of the fast-shooting low and midrange weapons with his armor.

WRONG !

maybe it should be written in the tooltip that only creeps are affected.

It is.

[BaYne]

I am glad to have found that threat.
MDk was saying what i was thinking a few weeks ago - but then i changed to Max-Range-tactics and now i know: max Range IS imba.
I am a casual player, too (between 5 and 20 Games a week) and i don't play liga. The public games are ruled by maxrange-weapon-players (about 9/10 Players are Maxrange or tinker/exploder/trader/mine-ídiots). There can't be found ppl using the fireball-canon or the tornado summoner any more.
I can't see where max-range looses advantagesin mid- and lategame. I can blow up enemy demontaks at their factories and take over those points with buying a bunker neat it while i keep at save range killing the idiots who teleport in order to defend. Some factories spawn enough creeps to defend me from these idiotic expensive teleport-tactics. Only thing that can screw me sometimes is a well fed demon tank with teleport AND Speedpack AND Meleeweapons. But it needs ALL three of these items. 2 of them are worthless.
My tactic: I buy the cheap scount for 500 (so 2500 gold left) and keep on creeping with creep-canon until i got 2800. Then i take the first GREEN (energy torpedo). With this WAYYYY FAt weapon i need 1 hit for a tinker, 2 hits for enemy scounts and 2 /3 hits for enemy light tanks. Only tanks who are "save" at beginning are the demolishers. The next 2800 gold are invested in the next green and so on and on. A few moments later we got the first leavers on enemy side with 0:XX and my score grows to ~ XX:3. I grow over-fed and not even leavergold could stop that.
For better understanding: I ddo NOT say that i am such a damn good player, i just say that it's fuckin' easy to kill with maxrange. Creeps AND tanks. The "you can't hit buildings"-thing is an advantage for me. Ifi want to hit buildings i use swarm rockets (highest range exept maxrange-weapons). The Greens are ment only for raping tanks and damn: IT WORKS!

I dont like that playstyle because of the routin you get after a few games. It's always the same and anyone tries it... the mid-range-weapons are unúsed at all and it's a GREY LONG RANGE WORLD. The old-scool kiting- and moving-skills get useless, because staying at high range is much more easy then a close-range-combat.

All in all: PLEASE nerf the max-range weapons :/

[Althend]

Don't forget that it is fuckin easy to win public games since we are use to play Btanks... :o (by using any tactics)

[bangyouredead]

Bayne you sound very noob and very angry. To not buy a weapon at start is generally pretty stupid, for any reason, and to creep it is better to start with the 2k long range. Scout isn't a great choice anymore either. Long-range is tough to beat early if you have a fixed speed tank, but can be beaten with helis, antigrav, and shredder. Midgame long range is still a viable tactic, but it starts to lose its edge as people get stronger tanks. Endgame long range is garbage, unless youve been fed like crazy and have a few 12k long range. The teleport tactic is not idiotic, I would simply stun you with demon, tp and own you. Someone else could take care of the factory. Long range rules early, short rules late.

[k-bones]

But look at this in another way.
To generally play as well and successfully as the long-ranged enemy you HAVE to beat him. Kill him, push, outdamage, anyway YOU are on counterplay and using all of your teleports and stuns, while he just sits back and shoots.
In theory he has always more targets to shoot when you come close... bollocks. He clears his way before you get close.
I'm not saying it's unbeatable, but requires much more skill and work to beat. Otherwise you can end up losing to a noob with a sky tank and hails, who keeps farming out your cp and triggering it when you are away.
Long range requires balance. Cheap rochets are quite ok, but big green and hail have to be nerfed.

[bangyouredead]

K-bones, I see it as the complete opposite. for one, playing long-range requires a lot of skill. the difference between 1k and 1300 range weapons isnt much, and a quick stun can result in your death. You always have to be moving with long-range, knowing when to chase and run, what your percentage is to win when troops are around an enemy, constantly staying out of their range, which is difficult qwhen they run and suddenly turn back at you, and you must get kills. Long -range is not good for farming as you do less damage and the fire delay is longer, also when killing creeps with weapons such as torpedo you can be wasting much of the damage on a creep that was nearly dead, not so with short-midrange. In early game the goal is to get kills with long-range so that you have an advantage later on, if you dont get kills then its basicaly even and as tanks get stronger and people get tps you get screwed. To put it simply, yes a lot of people play long range, but they don't play it well because it is a difficult strat and there are many good counters with tele, air tanks, stuns, not as effective in mid and endgame etc...

[Carcharoth2]

Hi guys some basic thoughts^^

Long range is a very strong stategie at the start of the game. You can creep easy and harass, sometimes kill your enemy.
It is easy to keep out of 1000 range with long range. Not much skill needed to play this

When the first bigger tanks come out long range becomes less effective, you cant kill your enemy good, not enough damage per second. But long range still creeps nice. Long range player is still save, but must have hull or better tank too, because heavy tank rockets or thunder tank stuns are dangerous.

after ca. 30 minutes long range becomes much weaker, demon tanks with long stun appear, teleport, Shredder with ulti...
=> long range cant stay out of enemy range for sure, at this moment long range weapons loose much of their range advantage.

Conclusion: At the beginning long range is really strong but becomes weaker during the game
So why not to play always long range at the start?
Multi bow strategies with scout, antivgrav ... can creep as good as the long range guys, but harder to play. You have the advantage your mutlibow is even in the later game a good weapon.
Range 1000 starting strategies, hard to play against long range. You can try to survive and creep as much as possible till you get a better tank (10-15 minutes). Sometimes hull needed before. I dont think you get easy kill aganist the low Hp long range guy, he just stays out of range.

[Althend]

Long rang has a lot of weakness. Even at beginning of the game.
Lower dps, lower delay. The middle and low range just have to kill more creep than you until the 10 first minutes. Sometimes by luck, the long range get one kill but it is nothing comparing to gold he loses from not killing creeps.
Nothing need to be nerfed... Just stop playing against noobies :p

[Stinkepete]

In the new version 8.51 its still the same in public noob games.
everyone chooses long range and i mean really everyone, if they already have two 2 scouts in mid they choose roflcopter with bombardings and even light tanks with long range weapons
Ye i know long range is not imba and can be countered late, BUT:
one should mention that btanks is a public game and the most players are simply nup, so if btanks wants to become famous and with a larger community (this is the main problem of league and all), it has to be more beginner - friendly and when everyone is pwnd by this one tactic btanks will definitely not grow at all

[Althend]

But we can counter long range at beginning also... Not only late. If it was beter at beginning, all "pro" players would use long range at beginning...
Should Exodus remove one nice balance of the map in order to get more players?

If he decreases the power of long range, where why would be people take long range?

Long ranges sucks in order to get cp.
Long range suck in order to defend a cp.
Long has really weak damage/sec.


Since the bgining of the map; there was a lot of trends. Currently, the trend is long range.

In btanks, beginners are always "powned".

[Prog]

But we can counter long range at beginning also... Not only late. If it was beter at beginning, all "pro" players would use long range at beginning...

Being a overall good player doesn't imply having good strategys.

[TKF]

Long range is easiest tactic for noobs.

[SirJoghurt]

Long range is easiest tactic for noobs.

lol ^^ and what is pwning 4 Long Range n00bs with Long Range ? with zero deaths ? ( or even one or 2 which does not matter by 33-2 Stats ) n00bish ?

someone said it.. atm many n00bs choose it cause they think " ah i got long range..i will win"

thats wrong... most of them dont know how to use it the right way...especially @ mid game and late

i would call it "relaX Tactic for pr0´s"

i atm play a lot of LR.. why ? to show the real n00bs how to get pwned by it :mrgreen:
it is a lot of fun to play with it until end of game.. if you know how ^^

greetz

eDiT_

but it is even more fun to pwn them with a "normal" Tactic

eDiT_

my Last Game... well you could say " it was pup... all n00bs" and so on
but green and rosa didnt act bad.. the Problem was.. they didnt get me.. and if you look how long i played wit r0flcopter and "only" small Hull.. well high controlled apm rocks :mrgreen:

[Morkardar]

But we can counter long range at beginning also... Not only late. If it was beter at beginning, all "pro" players would use long range at beginning...
Should Exodus remove one nice balance of the map in order to get more players?

If he decreases the power of long range, where why would be people take long range?

Long ranges sucks in order to get cp.
Long range suck in order to defend a cp.
Long has really weak damage/sec.


Since the bgining of the map; there was a lot of trends. Currently, the trend is long range.

In btanks, beginners are always "powned".

I do long-range next to CP and snipe them away.
To conquer I build barracks at their CP and stay next to CP... if they teleport... I snipe them away with 0 dmg taken.
If they dont teleport I lost 850 gold and get 200 for the CP.
Long-Range burst dmg is overall better than good DPS with not hitting enemy.

[Carcharoth2]

@ Althend
My suggestions are for Pro games;)
Even in pro games many guys play long range and it is a very strong starting strategie and you creep more then with most other strategies.
Some mulitbow strategies can compare in creeping abilites, but with 950-1000 range you creep lesser.
if you dont believe me come clan Bug in northrend
(Pls no discussion about pro or strong hobby player, i know we don´t earn money with BT)

@SirJoghurt
all strategie discussions should implement you play against players with the same skill.
Of course you can beat noob with every strategie

@Morkardar
I know your strategie is possibel, but i dont think your strategie works nice against player with the same skill like you
In addition you often have not only 1 v1 situation. You cant get the cp easy against 2 guys which tele when you try to capture it.

[SirJoghurt]

@SirJoghurt
all strategie discussions should implement you play against players with the same skill.
Of course you can beat noob with every strategie

..oh sorry i didn´t know (found some ironie here)

man i just want to tell (cause TKF said LR = n00b)
that you need also sKill to play LR the right way... which first has nothing to do with the sKill Level of your enemy...

if clan BuG loose a AT pr0 game then your n00bs ? or just got beaten ? there are many n00bs out there which dont know how to play LR right.. in pup games and also in "pr0" games.. thats it

[TKF]

man i just want to tell (cause TKF said LR = n00b)

I didn't exactly say LR = noob. I said it's the easiest tactic for noobs to use. They die more often with short range when they are unskilled and don't know how to play well with it....

[Vomitus]

I haven't notice in this topic one important thing. I think no one would deny that fact that 1300 range weapons had not been changed since... oh, since too long time ago(not including ET nerf for extra 100 gold cost). And never ever for all that time it was so much a problem so everyone start using it. And moreover it wasn't a problem when extremely OP Scout took place in game(before it was nerfed several times).
And this problem occurred only when what you think? When -hb mode has been introduced. This particular mode in general doesn't do anything bad, but it was able to show noobs the real advantage of long range. It was able to show what it could become. It -hb mode 1300 range is really OP because of... I dunno why, maybe of tank armor requirements or slow hp progression of creeps and towers, but it really is OP. This tended to a situation when almost every game created by n00b(and even mid(!)) was played as -hb. And almost always with HR. And when I create game and play normal mod - every n00b (and mid) continues to play HR and... eventually lose.
(am talking about pvpgn server war3.alkar.net(~2000 online) on which I play)
I play HR very rare and in most cases I got extremely OP(at end game I have heli+steel hull and 3 acids + 2 hails). When I play against HR with SR/MR a game ends and all enemies(and some of my team mates) have 3-5 torpedoes, some have hails or bombardings. HR do not rules as it seems to be on a first sight, but yeah, noobs see btanks now only in the light of this sole corrupted strategy.

Writing this I just wanted to explain the source of consequences have we faced with. Unfortunately I do not have any even slightest idea how this problem(that was well described here) could be resolved.

Thanks for attention.

[Carcharoth2]

The thoughts of Vomitus are interesting because he mentions the scout tank.
I think the problem with long range appeared with the introduction of the scout because this tank is still imbalanced.
It is not the long range. I never had problems against heli or light tanks with long range.
of course i lost games against helis with long range... but it was balanced.
Scout is in my oppinion the problem.
If i really want to win a game i play scout at the moment.
If i dont play i even have problems against guys which play weaker then me, but choose scout.

TKF wrote

I didn't exactly say LR = noob. I said it's the easiest tactic for noobs to use. They die more often with short range when they are unskilled and don't know how to play well with it....

i totally agree
thats the point i wanted to tell, its easier to play especially at the beginning

@SirJoghurt
y i know that if two guys play the same strategie the guy with more skill wins.
But if two guys with the same skill start playing different strategies and one guy wins easy the game is bit unbalanced, maybe only at the beginning.