Time for some weapon spring cleaning!

[ycoseth]

Then I guess our experiences differ greatly. While I see Poison Magic often, I would say that 1000-range seems to be far and away the most popular, with strong 750 builds that start FoK and move to things like Plasma Waves to be good as well.

Would you then agree that moving Poison Magic to 666 would be beneficial since it would lower the cost-DPS ratio and make it less of a first-choice?

[RedNova]

Blaster cannon really made a comeback since it's damage has been increased (and range decreased), which fuels discussions about close range being the definite way to go later on in my circle. However, since it is the last weapon of it's range, it does seems reasonable. I still prefer darkness cannon to blaster cannon given the choice (and the money).

But most discussions here are about weapon repartition below that price point, namely 10k and below. That most "good" players, based on empiric data from personal experience of some tankers here, use close range when in the mid-late game length is a style choice and should not shorten availiable weapons in other range classes.

Based on what was said here, from reactions and arguments, about about this little list of changes?

- 600~700 range changes:
Make grenade launcher a 600 range weapon.
Make flamer a bit costlier, about 8k, hence more powerful to distance it from poison magic.
So we get here 1500-3000-5555-8k?-11k. Nice progression. Already (over?)used, so no point adding others.

- 1300 range changes:
Add a weapon from the very large 1000 class (fear magic maybe?) to fill the gap between energy torpedo and rocket hail. Maybe at 4.3k cost?
So we get 2000-2800-4300-6000-7777-12k. Better balanced.

- Creep-only weapons
Make them all 850 range. Maybe add an upgrade to soulstone. Make frost cannon costlier, to about 8k.
So we get 1100-4800-8k. Plenty enough for anti-creeps, since it is seldom used, appart for the first one.

- Special cases
AA and Ground bombs get same range to about 850. AA get two modes: Air only (which is NEARLY a player-only mode) and normal (like plasma fragments). Ground bombs get mode Ground and Player-only. Should get higher damage to offet the fact that AA get almost same mode without the 0.75 modifier for player-only mode.

- 900~1k range
So rigth now we lost: Grenade launcher, fear magic and plasma fragments is now free to be used because the AA gun got better. Ycoseth described a lot how price range should be modified in this bracket.

For better variety inside that range class, why not have more multi-projectile weapons? These are often used because they creep better than "single shot" weapons. Just a suggestion.

[ycoseth]

I like RedNova's suggestions a lot as well. To me, the most important change is the Grenade Launcher. Starting weapons should present every option so with the changed GL you have a 600, 750, 860, 888, 950, and 999 range weapons all reasonably able to start with.

Beyond that, it's essentially a crapshoot. I think the two Magics down to 888 are important, specifically the Lightning Magic because there is nothing between Fire Arrows (3500) and Fire Magic (8888). Fire Arrows are also a very different style from Confusion's single-shot so I think the relative overlap isn't a big deal.

I really like the Machine Gun and Poison Magic changes, but I don't know how likely they are. I personally love the Machine Gun and want it to just do... something. It's too long range for 600, a bit too short for 750-800, so really anything up or down would be fine. Up to 750, even though the range is crowded already, I think is preferable to it just being by itself. 600 makes it real interesting because it opens up two new short-range builds, that of Scout/MG and Anti-Grav/Grenade. Scout would be weak to early long-range, and even 1000 range weapons, but would aid it's creeping style. Anti-Grav would finally have a solid "ambush" weapon with good DPS. Try ambushing people with a Glaive Cannon or Basic Magic. It's not very impressive.

[Vomitus]

@RedNova:
Generally I like your idea but I strongly object changing Fear magic for several reasons.
Because it perfectly fit in the 1000-range price row from 3300 -> 5050 -> 7070.
We should better change Lighting Magic or/and Confusion Magic.

And I personally like Fear Magic much

[Althend]

Why changing all? Please just add more weapons T_T'
It would be easier, don't you?

[ycoseth]

Well, sure, but there are already 3 weapon shops, and the base is a bit crowded as is. I also like the idea of a relatively limited selection, although I want to keep it within reason. Right now 950-1000 range has too many options, you are never hurting for a solid buy at any price point. On the other hand, many ranges are just lacking any coherant progression. Adding more weapons is doable I suppose, but then the map runs the risk of getting cluttered and confusing.

[Althend]

I don't see why it could be confusing. Adding one shop and classified shop by range or price is quit easy.
Having a lot of options of weapons is less confusing than different tanks.

[Vomitus]

Baaah! We'need mor powah!

[ycoseth]

Really oughta be put to a vote, should I set up a poll in here or in the Feedback forum?

[Vomitus]

Yeah, of course, add new weapons!
So if it once was Jumping Sniveldanglers we shall add some Crawling Shitblenders.

lol

[kittyonmyfoot]

I for one am for keeping the map simple and clean. I don't play other versions of battletanks or tank warz just because they are retardedly complex and i've seen many people tweak out a few games with goofball strategies... i.e. buying a mid lvl tank and all exp to lvl 25 and do a summon rush. >.<

[horselance]

Before adding new weapons, first, useless weapons must be morphed into useful weapons.

300 range weapon is quite imba IMO TKF. So much damage with so little cost? Will bring more imbaness to TP+Stun tactics.

[TKF]

300 range weapon is quite imba IMO TKF. So much damage with so little cost?....

Eh?? :?

Edit_

sry, you referred to my incinerator weapon suggestion.

[Vomitus]

300 range weapon is quite imba IMO TKF. So much damage with so little cost?....

Eh?? :?

:lol:
It seems this forum does not well comply to accessibility requirements for people with cognitive disabilities
link


PS Sorry, no offense, I am just now working on this part of my project and found it funny

[horselance]

lol Vomitus I write here assuming everybody remeber their writings. Lazy for quoting sometimes...

[LuckyD0g]

i don know
maybe the items are steal confusing
one thing hate about dota is the item combining.
you buy 1 in X and A and C shops you combine in Y shop.

A bit same in BT you buy a

It is now
Goblin Trader:
Small Explosives, Mines, Heavy Mines, Huge Mines, Teleporter
Smoke Generator, Orbital Control, Bomb.

Trader:
Troup Command, Siege Pack, Speed Boost,
Mone Defuse Pack, Repair Kit,
Extended Repair Kit
Radar, Remote Fuse,
Iron Hull, Steel Hull, Gold Hull, Repair-Robots.

Research Center:
Factory, Update, Teleport Breaker, Detector, Net Lancher, Battery.
Tech Mech, Upgraded Weapons, Upgraded Armour.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Suggestion:
Goblin Trader (Active Weapons):
Small Explosives, Mines, Heavy Mines, Huge Mines,
Orbital Control, Bomb.

Trader (Surviving Items):
Speed Boost, Teleporter,
Repair Kit, Extended Repair Kit,
Iron Hull, Steel Hull, Gold Hull, Repair-Robots.
Smoke Generator.

Research Center (Team Supporting, 1 Chage items):
Factory, Update, Teleport Breaker, Detector, Net Lancher, Battery.
Tech Mech, Upgraded Weapons, Upgraded Armour.
Troup Command, Siege Pack.

Means Another New Shop (Anty mines, Anty smoke):
Radar, Remote Fuse, Mone Defuse Pack.


Add to items words like: Can be combined.


New command -shop (description), when you type -shop it will give you a description of the selected shop.
Goblin Trader: Active Weapons
Trader: Surviving Items
Research Center: Team Supporting, 1 Chage items
Another New Shop: Anty mines, Anty smoke
Weapon sorting
I Weapons: cost Under 3000
II Weapons: cost Above 3000
Spirit Trader: all items have 999 Range.
Centre: ...

[Gammagulp]

That point with the weapons I experienced to. I have 4800 Gold. buying confusion magic 4444... or waiting for fear magic 5050
Or I already had 5050 Gold+75 for teleport.

I think more difference between some prises would be better, but suggesting new needs a little plan.
Why not starting with weapons which are not really often used or better... lets say nearly equal in cost, firing cooldown and range

I would name these weapons:

- One of these two is enough as they are now - comparable cooldown, cost, Range

Confusion- / fear magic
Lightning Magic / Ghosts of doom

- seldom used weapons (maybe change)
(sometimes against air, but not upgradeable therefore - and there are only 3 Airtanks in the game, if you need you often buy AA Gun, because you can only hunt zeppelin creeps with that extra mode)

Grenade launcher
Plasmalauncher (6000 Gold - dont know exact name, next to light fantastic)
maybe Rock catapult (I used it before, but not the siege mode against buildings)


Dont know more who could be changed without missing them - even the burning projectiles - at least 1 anti building weapon with quiet high costs is good :mrgreen: .

That means if we are allowed to make good suggestions for the mappers we could reuse around 5 weapons.

To make changes taking short time it would be cool if je can use these weapons + animation as they are now, but just change the values.
Again ^^: What do the others think of those 5 ???

[Bobguydude]

Finally, a well thought out and cohesive suggestion! Most of what I've read is something like "(insert weapon or tank name here) IS IMPA PLZ FIX!!!!"

Anyway, I totally agree with your suggestions, ycoseth. I personally love playing the Antigrav and have often longed for a good starting weapon instead of foregoing buying a weapon right away and just saving for a while. I hope the map makers decide to implement these changes, and I think in the end it will make the game much more balanced.

[Gammagulp]

Hmmm i have got one idea for a weapon of those.

I sometimes like to buy not extreme short ranke - up to 660 Range, but not One of these 950+ Range weapons
That meens middle range in the middle range.

Weapons, which already exist in that class are:

Basic Cannon - 2000 (high cd)
Flaming arrows - 3500 (low cd, + Split fire)
Light fantastic - 6000 ("high" cd, Split fire)

I would like to see a weapon between them with a quiet hight cooldown, maybe 1.5 seconds between those gold areas.

Can we make the Confusion Magic have 888 Range and 1 till 1.5 Seconds, with the typical damage formula for 888 Range and 4444Gold cost?
(the fear magic would be also ok, but the animations are little magic arrows, and i think that would not fit high damage)

Another suggestion I want to do is, changing range mode.
That means that rock catapult has a 1050 Range attack. I think it would be cool to make that range changable to 750 or 700 Range

What do the others think of it ?

4444Gold, 888Range, 1.5 Seconds cd, Confusion magic
3000Gold Rockcatapult, Range changing - 750/1050

[k-bones]

I agree on the general idea of adding another useful 4-5k normal attack weapon. A good thing would be to delete plasma fragments (imho totally useless) and adding something instead, as there is no really reasonable normal (non-magic) weapon choice in 4-5k cost except for plasma waves (but it's only* 750 range), so most people probably wait and buy laser or light fantastic.

*if u don't want to go close combat.