Troops, Siege and Troopcommand

[Wupti]

First i'd like to say I appreciate you guys bother to take time and discuss this topic with me

@perfektionist

tower isnt worth 350 gold, but its price gets higher the stronger the tower gets (force upg). Besides u might want to check your calculations again
4x350 = 1400 1400>1500

@prog

well my only source is my own games (if not guessing from units spawned). However lets take a closer look at those 10 games u choose, which players did use troops?
not-toulouse, raf_today_hero, cro_ownage, Strichkot, catalyst, lolbtanks, masterkiller (x2), josh_zogger, yingxiong,´xxxTODxxx, Batbatt, thebigl, Konors, Skytomb, Pil[ger], Daminotor3, Ch4osxd (x3), Someunknownguy, Alexandro1 (25), Dnn.
reason for count alexandro1 (25) is because game is 27 min only which makes it possible for him to have troops. I didnt count germanjokerxd (33) since the game was 1h and 16 min .

out of these players only 3 of them has elo -1500 which leads me to the conclusion that players who buy troops are mainly players who know their cost is cheap compared to their strength. Therefore i took a look at the top 3 (elo) players.
Average troops spawned:
Prog (152,60)
F1ghter (209,30)
Invincibl3 (130,42)

These are magnificent higher than when i take a look at most other players.

concerning your scout tactic (rly?) and antigrave i won't say it make the antigrave tactic impossible to raise troops with 500-1000 gold.
often when i play i have 2 weapons, hull and troops after 12-13 min where most middleplayers havent had a chance to get tank yet (unless saved from start)
by making the cost 3k or 3,5k it would delay me a few min to get troops and people in middle could buy their heavy/ghost/guard/airship or whatever at min 15.

@unifieddoom

siege might outrange tower however they still need cover. you can easyli dodge cata tower yourself and troops can provide u cover (takes max 10 sec to kill a tower with weapons and no enemy)

@ckibibi

if used bad everything is useless, if you can't hit with orbital then its bad aswell or if you use kit after take 1 hit lol... I think instead we should look at them if used properly, then they beat any weapon worth 2,5k in my opinion.
You don't need adv troops to do proper base siege, however the troop command will not get cheaper and i doubt many people would buy siege only since they need to provide cover and with adv you get aura creeps aswell.
You say i don't like to see variety?...
The reason for this is because i want to see more variety and not just troop mayhem like you prefer. I doubt another distrubition between troops and siege would only benefit the game.
About the 3 statements you make, i can partly agree to the first. however the second is pure bs.
Yes your enemy might have 1 itemspot used up for troops, but you have 1 for orb so where is the +1 spot and orb vs troops (5000 vs 2500) or (5000 vs 6000) will either put you on the disadvantage or favor you slightly, but hardly enough to take cp. And if the enemy have 5x troops you suggest 5x orbital? Yes you can wait use the orbital, but since you are on the disadvantage what will you do, they can always spawn creeps and move away from them so they provide cover for 1-2 sec and take no damage from your orbital?

about the last theres only 1 thing that can save you from mass units at cp and that's to buy some yourself since the dmg dealt early is too great ever unless 4 players port perfectly synchroned and enemy dont control his creeps to attack 1 guy at a time.

[Prog]

Just a very very short comment: In my league games I played probably in 80% of all games a ghost tank, that is the reason for my high troop count. Don't know about the others.

[ckibibi]

@ckibibi

if used bad everything is useless, if you can't hit with orbital then its bad aswell or if you use kit after take 1 hit lol... I think instead we should look at them if used properly, then they beat any weapon worth 2,5k in my opinion.
You don't need adv troops to do proper base siege, however the troop command will not get cheaper and i doubt many people would buy siege only since they need to provide cover and with adv you get aura creeps aswell.
You say i don't like to see variety?...
The reason for this is because i want to see more variety and not just troop mayhem like you prefer. I doubt another distrubition between troops and siege would only benefit the game.
About the 3 statements you make, i can partly agree to the first. however the second is pure bs.
Yes your enemy might have 1 itemspot used up for troops, but you have 1 for orb so where is the +1 spot and orb vs troops (5000 vs 2500) or (5000 vs 6000) will either put you on the disadvantage or favor you slightly, but hardly enough to take cp. And if the enemy have 5x troops you suggest 5x orbital? Yes you can wait use the orbital, but since you are on the disadvantage what will you do, they can always spawn creeps and move away from them so they provide cover for 1-2 sec and take no damage from your orbital?

about the last theres only 1 thing that can save you from mass units at cp and that's to buy some yourself since the dmg dealt early is too great ever unless 4 players port perfectly synchroned and enemy dont control his creeps to attack 1 guy at a time.

Sorry if it seems like you wanted less variety, not what i wanted to tell ( hard to be clear in another language). The part with less variety refers to my way of playing, I got differents builds and You got yours (based on your gameplay and skills and mine based on my game play and skills) something you can do or you think is good wont be possible or "in my way of playing". Meaning with the changes you ask you will have more variety, but for me I feel like I ll loose possibilities (but maybe I am wrong).

As for orbital and mass troops : Orbital is just an item given in example but the main argument was the aoe spells of tanks (mostly ulti). I have the feeling that there are some good ways to counter mass troops when team fight occurs on cp. for example If I see people going mass troops in game I will have a preference for gobelin (ulti and riots are truly great skills to kills low hp units in short range), or demon or frost (sky tank is very good too ). 5 orbital is a waste imo.
I just wanted to say that imo mass troops should be encouraged for siege and can be counter with many ways on cp.

for the last part we agree troops spawn early on cp at begin of the game is really hard to counter and is a bit overpowered.

[Perfektionist]

tower isnt worth 350 gold, but its price gets higher the stronger the tower gets (force upg). Besides u might want to check your calculations again
4x350 = 1400 1400>1500

i know. 7x350=2450 but i dont know the exact amount of money from each tower.

[Wupti]

@ckibibi

if used bad everything is useless, if you can't hit with orbital then its bad aswell or if you use kit after take 1 hit lol... I think instead we should look at them if used properly, then they beat any weapon worth 2,5k in my opinion.
You don't need adv troops to do proper base siege, however the troop command will not get cheaper and i doubt many people would buy siege only since they need to provide cover and with adv you get aura creeps aswell.
You say i don't like to see variety?...
The reason for this is because i want to see more variety and not just troop mayhem like you prefer. I doubt another distrubition between troops and siege would only benefit the game.
About the 3 statements you make, i can partly agree to the first. however the second is pure bs.
Yes your enemy might have 1 itemspot used up for troops, but you have 1 for orb so where is the +1 spot and orb vs troops (5000 vs 2500) or (5000 vs 6000) will either put you on the disadvantage or favor you slightly, but hardly enough to take cp. And if the enemy have 5x troops you suggest 5x orbital? Yes you can wait use the orbital, but since you are on the disadvantage what will you do, they can always spawn creeps and move away from them so they provide cover for 1-2 sec and take no damage from your orbital?

about the last theres only 1 thing that can save you from mass units at cp and that's to buy some yourself since the dmg dealt early is too great ever unless 4 players port perfectly synchroned and enemy dont control his creeps to attack 1 guy at a time.

Sorry if it seems like you wanted less variety, not what i wanted to tell ( hard to be clear in another language). The part with less variety refers to my way of playing, I got differents builds and You got yours (based on your gameplay and skills and mine based on my game play and skills) something you can do or you think is good wont be possible or "in my way of playing". Meaning with the changes you ask you will have more variety, but for me I feel like I ll loose possibilities (but maybe I am wrong).

As for orbital and mass troops : Orbital is just an item given in example but the main argument was the aoe spells of tanks (mostly ulti). I have the feeling that there are some good ways to counter mass troops when team fight occurs on cp. for example If I see people going mass troops in game I will have a preference for gobelin (ulti and riots are truly great skills to kills low hp units in short range), or demon or frost (sky tank is very good too ). 5 orbital is a waste imo.
I just wanted to say that imo mass troops should be encouraged for siege and can be counter with many ways on cp.

for the last part we agree troops spawn early on cp at begin of the game is really hard to counter and is a bit overpowered.

No problem, we're only here to discuss it and there's no right or wrong when it comes to opinions. I only bring up this topic because i see how i myself and many others use the troops in games in a way which 2500 definately is too cheap compared to the other stuff. I knew people would complain about me bringing it up since troops are a part of many good strategies and therefore would "harm" the majority of players. I would like to hear some more players point of view at this chase and please come with some arguments and not just a "agree" or "disagree".

ckibibi it might sounds simple to counter troops but one way or another i've seen many games where mass troops overpower combo's like thunder + skytank + gobo + frost. (tanks who on paper should have no problem battling troops). I've tryed to evaluate some of those games and see why it is that happens and one of my conclusions is that the tanks like goblin, sky, frost etc. has to use their skills to kill troops instead of against enemy players, this means they only have 1 max 2 skills left against players (and weapons ofcause) and puts them on a disadvantage against an enemyteam with all skills available.

[Perfektionist]

for the last part we agree troops spawn early on cp at begin of the game is really hard to counter and is a bit overpowered.

this is a problem and i made already a suggestion but they dont want to change that^^
( http://btanks.net/forum/showthread.php?t...=troops+at )

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ckibibi it might sounds simple to counter troops but one way or another i've seen many games where mass troops overpower combo's like thunder + skytank + gobo + frost. (tanks who on paper should have no problem battling troops). I've tryed to evaluate some of those games and see why it is that happens and one of my conclusions is that the tanks like goblin, sky, frost etc. has to use their skills to kill troops instead of against enemy players, this means they only have 1 max 2 skills left against players (and weapons ofcause) and puts them on a disadvantage against an enemyteam with all skills available.

but thats wrong! I think you only use the ulti of the goblin if you really know you will kill the enemy. And the radius of the goblin ulti is so high that i didnt think there are any problems. Frost the same: You only need the second skill and all creeps are dead. Stun + Ulti on the enemy = easy kill. And also in mid-endgame troops are more useless. Everytank got abilitiys with big area dmg. And for midgame you can buy machinegun as troop counter

[Wupti]

but thats wrong! I think you only use the ulti of the goblin if you really know you will kill the enemy. And the radius of the goblin ulti is so high that i didnt think there are any problems. Frost the same: You only need the second skill and all creeps are dead. Stun + Ulti on the enemy = easy kill. And also in mid-endgame troops are more useless. Everytank got abilitiys with big area dmg. And for midgame you can buy machinegun as troop counter

This is only an option if the enemy stick to his troops and not use them as cover. frost will waste his 2nd skill on creep (need level 3) and if he want to stun + ulti he will need a portion of batteries first which basically will make him a frost with no weapons (if min 35), besides the frost will 9/10 times get stunned when ulti = no kill.

in endgame troops are not that devastating true, but adv troops is fine for siege and since the price on that haven't changed it should not do any differences from how it is now.
This suggestion was only to balance early/midgame better without making a difference to the endgame.

[Perfektionist]

This is only an option if the enemy stick to his troops and not use them as cover. frost will waste his 2nd skill on creep (need level 3) and if he want to stun + ulti he will need a portion of batteries first which basically will make him a frost with no weapons (if min 35), besides the frost will 9/10 times get stunned when ulti = no kill.

you cant play frostD Frost must be played with manauppgrades^^