More air tanks needed... also lag issues [CLICK HERE]

[Prog]

A helicopter can do the same things, but worse. It is slower (by 20) and has worse spells for certain purposes. Helicopter can stun, but it lacks good aoe against troop command and for 3v3 mid play. It also lacks good creeping spells, opposed to the healing drone air ship. Now if you want to use the mobility to the max. you play mid, where you have only disadvantages for helicopter: air ship is faster switching to lane, air ship has better aoe abilities for 2v2/3v3 fights and air ship has better creeping capacities. Heli might still be viable if you lack stuns in your 3 player team, but if you allready have a stun in your team air ship is just better. It's different at the side lane, where the aoe spells normally only hit 1 opponent and the maximum creeping efficiency is achieved easily. Here the stun can be enough advantage to make helicopter and air ship equally good, maybe the helicopter slightly better if no troop command is played or against certain tanks (gobo for example).

btw: playing on bnet in european clangames means ping < 40

[jonjon]

A helicopter can do the same things, but worse. It is slower (by 20) and has worse spells for certain purposes. Helicopter can stun, but it lacks good aoe against troop command and for 3v3 mid play. It also lacks good creeping spells, opposed to the healing drone air ship. Now if you want to use the mobility to the max. you play mid, where you have only disadvantages for helicopter: air ship is faster switching to lane, air ship has better aoe abilities for 2v2/3v3 fights and air ship has better creeping capacities. Heli might still be viable if you lack stuns in your 3 player team, but if you allready have a stun in your team air ship is just better. It's different at the side lane, where the aoe spells normally only hit 1 opponent and the maximum creeping efficiency is achieved easily. Here the stun can be enough advantage to make helicopter and air ship equally good, maybe the helicopter slightly better if no troop command is played or against certain tanks (gobo for example).

btw: playing on bnet in european clangames means ping < 40

Just to remind you, I am only comparing one helicopter + gold hull + one weapon (say Fireball Cannon) to Air Ship + one weapon (Fireball Cannon). Although it is a 500 gold difference, I didn't just suddenly add troop commands to the equation. Put them on a field with no surrounding creeps and Helicopter will win. There's no guarantee that Air Ship can damage with the drones or the plasma rain. If they were both on level 10, the Helicopter is guaranteed to 1180 damage on a tank that has 3960 HP. Air can do a guaranteed 540 on a tank that has 4999 HP. But Helicopter was simply just an example I put forward to enforce my point. In comparison to other tanks within Air Ships price range, it simply sucks.

If I wanted to creep, I'd go thunder. Thunder does twice the better job at it. You can stun an Air Ship within their allied creeps (thinking they're protected) and then ulti to get rid of the creeps while moving in.

[Prog]

It's just pointless to compare things which actually never happen that way. It's a dynamic game, there is no "heli+hull+fireball vs air ship + fireball without any creeps on both sides" a whole game. As soon as you get hull and the other one gets air ship the game doesnt stop. In this situation noone can really harm the other one (put them on any lane and they will just creep, doing nothing else with their "incredible" dps - note that the air ship will creep better most of the times), more important is what the strats transition into and that can be for example weapon, troops, porter, steel/gold hull for the air ship. I don't see any helicopter strat beating this, some may play 0-0, but better isn't possible. Even those 0-0 playing strats would be at a disadvantage as whenever 2v2+ fights come up air ship is stronger.

You say "if I want to creep, i'd go thunder", but thunder cannot attack the side lanes from mid as well as the air ship can. Thunder does worse against heavy tank, shredder and gobo. Thunder is really slow, so you might spend additional gold for speed. Thunder might creep better, but the advantage of the air ship is that it is just incredible flexible and able to create many favorable situations (like 2v1 at side lanes when air ship is playing mid) better than any other tank, without losing too much creeping or 1v1 strength.

[jonjon]

It's just pointless to compare things which actually never happen that way. It's a dynamic game, there is no "heli+hull+fireball vs air ship + fireball without any creeps on both sides" a whole game. As soon as you get hull and the other one gets air ship the game doesnt stop. In this situation noone can really harm the other one (put them on any lane and they will just creep, doing nothing else with their "incredible" dps - note that the air ship will creep better most of the times), more important is what the strats transition into and that can be for example weapon, troops, porter, steel/gold hull for the air ship. I don't see any helicopter strat beating this, some may play 0-0, but better isn't possible. Even those 0-0 playing strats would be at a disadvantage as whenever 2v2+ fights come up air ship is stronger.

You say "if I want to creep, i'd go thunder", but thunder cannot attack the side lanes from mid as well as the air ship can. Thunder does worse against heavy tank, shredder and gobo. Thunder is really slow, so you might spend additional gold for speed. Thunder might creep better, but the advantage of the air ship is that it is just incredible flexible and able to create many favorable situations (like 2v1 at side lanes when air ship is playing mid) better than any other tank, without losing too much creeping or 1v1 strength.

The fact that the game is so dynamic, makes it hard to argue.
But it doesn't really matter what comparison I make. It was an example to reinforce Air Ships weakness. How many tanks have a stun/slow from Tinker to Goblin Tank? All of them except 3. Although Air Ship is safe from the Gobbies, it doesn't stop them from using nets. Air Ship cannot hold its ground. It has no means to apart from the bought weapons. Holding your ground is one of the most important aspects of tanks. If you don't hold your ground, then you can't creep. If you can't creep, you lose money. If you lose money, then you lose the game. I know Air Ship is meant to be used with passive attacking strategies (ie. Troops, Mines, Creep factories). But I find it's like the Tinker who can't push mid. Eventually you're going to realise that you need an attacking strategy to move forward. That why Air is just there to creep and annoy until it makes a transition to an attacking tank.

It's fair enough that Air Ship's primary attribute is mobility and speed. But what does that mean to Battle Tanks? How about when people inevitably start buying speed packs? It means jack diddly squat. What you said about Thunder versus Heavy Tank, Shredder or Goblin is irrelevant since we are only comparing the Air Ship to other tanks. That being said, Thunder > Air Ship - HP wise, specials wise. In a 1v1, 2v2 or 3v3 situation, it has no choice but to defend its control point against a Thunder. Moving away just means you lose towers, you lose up to hundreds of creep bounty and possibly the CP. In a pro game, that it matters.

However, I understand the point you are subtly trying to bring forward though. In this game there needs to be a balance between tanks that employ active strategies and tanks that use passive strategies. Tanks that are aggressors and those that are supporters. The fact is that every tank has a primary strength. Every tank has a purpose. It's just the Air Ships one isn't really a good one for this type of game. By the time you reach mid to end game, you MUST switch to an aggressor.

I was once a Sky Fortress with 4 acid cannons and over 30 kills ahead of a guy who had Infernal and a couple poisons. Funnily, that build was much stronger than mine I couldn't out range him while defending at a control point. I had no choice but to get hit. We still won though when I switched all 4 to bombs. :lol:

[Prog]

It's fair enough that Air Ship's primary attribute is mobility and speed. But what does that mean to Battle Tanks?

It means really a lot. The ability to create frequently 2v1 situations on the side lanes can't be overestimated, it can be pivotal for winning in my opinion.

I know Air Ship is meant to be used with passive attacking strategies (ie. Troops, Mines, Creep factories).

Troops are not passive and mines and factories are rather bad with air ship. I'd play it either with short range, porter, troops, hull or ~777-999 range, porter, hull - With both strats I'm allways looking for a possiblity to port from mid to the side lanes to create 2v1s. Nearly all common air ship builds play it like that in the european bnet clangames (side lane players just looking for possible 4v2/4v3 situations in mid).

[jonjon]

It's fair enough that Air Ship's primary attribute is mobility and speed. But what does that mean to Battle Tanks?

It means really a lot. The ability to create frequently 2v1 situations on the side lanes can't be overestimated, it can be pivotal for winning in my opinion.

I know Air Ship is meant to be used with passive attacking strategies (ie. Troops, Mines, Creep factories).

Troops are not passive and mines and factories are rather bad with air ship. I'd play it either with short range, porter, troops, hull or ~777-999 range, porter, hull - With both strats I'm allways looking for a possiblity to port from mid to the side lanes to create 2v1s. Nearly all common air ship builds play it like that in the european bnet clangames (side lane players just looking for possible 4v2/4v3 situations in mid).

I fail to see how any of those strats would be useful on BA. No fog of war means that such a strat is bleeding obvious and would give away double kills for free. That is especially with the purchases you put forward. There are obviously better builds with the same amount of gold than what you've described.

I just used Air Tank with a huge mine last game. Great fun! Started zapping people from the moment they ran over my 6k dmg mines. Like dancing around a TP breaker. Then I switched over to a Goblin Tank with teleport. Killed some frosts quite easily