This has been bugging me for several versions now. There simply is no good defense against a team of all long range (1300) weapons. The attached replay is a prime example of an experienced team being spanked very badly and there being nothing they could do to defend themselves. My entire team was on voice chat, and we've all played over 100 games. So very frusturating.
I propose that the there at least be an option to limit long range weapons to the first player to buy one. Kind of like tank monopoly, but for long range weapons. Having one player on your team with long range is a good tactic without it being overpowered. I do not want to have to start with long range every game on the off chance that the entire other team also has long range. Even the exploaders don't help as the replay shows.
I have been a lover of tanks since version 4 (I still have the map), but I'll be retiring the game all together unless this can be balanced.
Btanks fan since version 4US I don't know why it happened by I can fix it!
1) Battle Tanks is balanced for the normal mode.
2) You played 5k + hb
3) 5k + hb is not the normal mode.
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4) Battle Tanks is not balanced for 5k + hb
5) Battle Tanks is not balanced for the way you played.
In normal mode long range is well balanced, so no need to change anything. If you want to play a fun-mode like hb you'll have to live with that imbalance i guess.
Of course there will not be any limitations. This weapons are particularly effective in mid when more than 1. But that does not mean it is godlike. There are ways to handle them.
Things you should know about long ranges:
-They are much expensive than other ranges. (130% comparing to swarm rocket, 230% comparing to Poison Magic)
-They is no rapid fire long range. ( cooldowns bigger than 1.0 sec always)
-They can't creeps as good as other weapons because of long cooldown and low DPS.
-They hit too far. (Impossible to focus on Enemy Tanks)
-They must fly to hit you better, so they cant stun.
-They must expense their money on weapons, so they cant have hp.
And there are few tricks:
-Don't run from them or they will kill you.
-Use extra creep assault like factories or creep commander.
-Always buy a tank with stun.
-Get a Teleporter ASAP.
These things are acceptable rules always. But -hb is a different matter anyway, there is no money balance in that mode. It is a fun mode only.
I hope these things can help.
EDIT:
Scout + long range is the strongest tactic in -hb. Because it is a creeper tank and dont let you creep as well. But is a FUN mode as mentioned.
Icono Wrote:This has been bugging me for several versions now. There simply is no good defense against a team of all long range (1300) weapons. The attached replay is a prime example of an experienced team being spanked very badly and there being nothing they could do to defend themselves. My entire team was on voice chat, and we've all played over 100 games. So very frusturating.
I propose that the there at least be an option to limit long range weapons to the first player to buy one. Kind of like tank monopoly, but for long range weapons. Having one player on your team with long range is a good tactic without it being overpowered. I do not want to have to start with long range every game on the off chance that the entire other team also has long range. Even the exploaders don't help as the replay shows.
I have been a lover of tanks since version 4 (I still have the map), but I'll be retiring the game all together unless this can be balanced.
Icono, DID YOU WATCH YOUR OWN REPLAY???
You were the best one on your team. I don't want to be a jerk but your teamates were really terrible Icono. 2 or 3 of your teamates were a total dissaster. I only watched 2:55 of your replay and this is just a few details of the crap play of your teamates:
@ 2 minutes and 55 seconds...
Blue was still a tinker with no weapon who had 0 gold farmed.
Purple also had 0 gold farmed.
Green had needlessly been fed 3 kills already while dark force had only 2 kills (1 from the dark force and 1 from you).
I added up the total gold farmed for each player and the light force players had already farmed 1,486 more gold than the dark force players!!!
In addition, if I'm not mistaken, only 2 of the light force players got long range weapons at the start. A heli in the top lane and a scout in the center. I don't know, maybe later light force saw what a crappy team they were playing and decided to all get long range to torture you?
Long range was definately not the reason you lost. In my opinion long range is annoying because it is actually very easy to counter and yet noobs will oftern times feed a long range player because they don't know how to counter it correctly. To me long range just makes games more drawn out because you can't properly seige a base with it and attacking a base with a team all long range sometimes can take a little bit longer than usual. But that just depends on how good the attacking team is. I just think long range should be allowed to attack buildings in the interest of making it less annoying and shortening game time.
I used to be like you and think long range was an overpowered tactic but I definately learned my lesson. As it stands now, teamwork, stuns, teleport, higher hitpoint tanks, and high dps short range weapons, and increasing creep numbers and their upgrades all rock the faces off of long range players. Just remember, A long range player is spending a LOT more gold on dps than some one getting short range so if both are good players then the one using short range will be able to get teleport and a better tank sooner as well as more dps.
Why's the rothchild family crest and the illuminati symbol on my 1 dollar bill? Why do rich and powerful American "christian" leaders have gay sex and worship a giant 40 foot stone owl at Beach Grove every year? Why doesn't anyone care?
I have to agree with qweqqweq and say that your team was horrible. I seriously doubt that all of the players have played over 100 games.
First I have to admit I've never started with 5k and wouldn't know exactly what to buy, but starting weapon/tank choice was horrendous.
Blue had creeped exactly 0 gold until 5:00 when he bought a heli and soulstone. Imo, soulstone cannot be used effectively as your only weapon.
Teal had a tinker with just fear magic :roll:
Purple had a demo with a rock catapult :roll:
Yellow had a light tank with torpedo in mid. A lane is a must for torpedo starts as you will never be able to push in mid.
Also, at around 10:00 min mark, light force were capturing bot point, and red (you) was the only one to tele and defend it, when at least 2 others were still alive.
I cannot comment past 14:00 min mark, but light force were far from 'pros'. Sure pink had 2 bombardings, 1 hail, a gold hull and got a few early kills, but he should have just got an airship, skilled speed and abused the un-hulled team in their lanes and at CPs.
Yeah, I think you're right on the Bennie. That's why everyone complains that -hb and all the other modes are unbalanced; because they are.
You may notice that some of my posts are somewhat disconnected in their ideas and don't really flow that well. That's because my mind drifts around like a jellyfish in a strong ocean current. You just lost the game.
I don't think that the starting gold affects the balance of the game, because rush or even the old ultra rush setting just skips a certain part of the game, without giving anyone a particular advantage.
As for High Bounty, balance suggestions based on observations in this mode, won't be considered. It's just a variation of the game for you guys to have fun with, just like the 'Only Tinker mode', but it's not meant for "serious" games.
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Rush and ultrarush most certainly do give certain players a disadvantage. Well, I assume you meant strategies/tanks when you said player, if not nevermind.
a trader has a much harder time getting his initial wood up in a rush game, with there being almost no way to play as one in an ultrarush. It would be nice if rush mode gave everyone a bonus 10 wood at the start, with ultrarush an extra 100 or so.
tinkers are also penalised in rush/ultrarush games as they have had less times to place modules in their force towers. I don't see a way this can easily be fixed, however.
GooglyBoogly Wrote:a trader has a much harder time getting his initial wood up...
LOL!
Why's the rothchild family crest and the illuminati symbol on my 1 dollar bill? Why do rich and powerful American "christian" leaders have gay sex and worship a giant 40 foot stone owl at Beach Grove every year? Why doesn't anyone care?
I'd love to play an all long range team, so long as I don't have feeders on my team. Just make sure you got enough creeps around you and make more money than them. That means don't die. That is hard for people who suck. So stop playing with people who suck :lol:
I'd love to play an all long range team, so long as I don't have feeders on my team. Just make sure you got enough creeps around you and make more money than them. That means don't die. That is hard for people who suck. So stop playing with people who suck :lol:
Now that's certainly a good one!
Seriously, I'm playing about 10-20 games a week (and have been for the past 1 and a half year) and it's very hard to get a game full of players where there is no one who sucks.
Still, i don't think ranged weapons are overpowered. If a newbie plays ranged he is easy to kill with short range weapons. If a good player plays long range - well, then he's a good player and i think it's okay if it's not that easy to kill him.
Just think about the following:
If you pay X Gold you can either get a weapon with short range and X/range dps or you can get a wepon with long range and X/range dps - the longer the range, the less the dps per gold spent.
I really think the weapon balance regarding range is pretty cool at the moment, because it's rather easy to play long range and not make many kills, while it is way harder to master short range weapons, but if you succeed in doing so, you can make way more kills (enemy tanks AND creeps) - also, in the late game long ranged weapons stand no ground against short ranged weapons as most ppl if not everyone already got a teleporter and if you do not know how to use that - well, i won't say anymore than tripple activation trick
(for those of you who don't know: click the teleporter 3 times (or press the assigned key 3 times in fast succession) and it tp you somewhere - i won't elaborate as to where that is, as it is not that easy to describe, but rest assured, it follows some simple logic)
Getting used to the Sand everywhere. At least it brings us map updates.
griffin1987 Wrote:(for those of you who don't know: click the teleporter 3 times (or press the assigned key 3 times in fast succession) and it tp you somewhere - i won't elaborate as to where that is, as it is not that easy to describe, but rest assured, it follows some simple logic)
Well, I already said this several times. First, you only need to click two times (or better: just the teleporter on itself). Then you will be teleported to the place you picked up the item the last time. Quite easy, isn't it?
As for the topic, I obviously also think that long range is balanced. And I also dislike to use limitations. Applying them on certain parts of the game just shows that there are imbalances and a limitation is just a quick and dirty way to get rid of the problem. Instead of actually trying to balance, you'll just say use this limitation and your problem is solved. I don't believe such things really improve the game.
That's also the reason why I don't like the No Trader, No Exploder, No Tinker or No Upgrades modes and the discussion about the No Explosives or No Mines, etc. I think those modes shouldn't exist, as they show that there are still flaws within the map, but the community don't want them to be removed, even if the certain part is balanced, so it's rather unlikely that this will happen ...
Seems like I got a little carried away from the topic, but I think you got my point.
This post has been brought to you by Sand - it's everywhere, get used to it.
I just said three times, because normally i just click it like wild because sometimes it takes extremely long till it works, and sometimes my tank is just stunned and I'm just feeling better clicking it like mad (I know, when stunned, it's also enough to click it 2 times).
Also i want to totally agree on the things you said - there's only one thing I think different of: Only because something is easier to use or stronger, doesn't make the game imbalanced. Most ppl shouting "IMBA" just want a game where every noob will play equally as good as every longterm pro, and that is certainly a thing I don't want. On of the best points of battletanks is it's variety in how you can play the game and how everything can be countered - if it were different, there'd be no place for any strategy and everyone would play the same (okay, in fact, the frost laser and so on is imbalanced, because there is no alternative like a 2000 range low dps weapon or anything like that - long ranged weapons already end with the acid gun - and there are no 30k mines, 30k orbital control (bt reflection has some cool items btw) or 20k explosives (i'd rather not have the last one )) I really think it's okay that you can kill a ice cannon user with bombarding rockets, but if you play it right, it's easily the other way around - so no imbalance here i think. Also: try to hit someone specific with a long range weapon in a flood of creeps - no chance. If you try the same thing with an ice cannon, you normally have an about 80% chance of hitting him - the real figure of course depends on the situation, but i just wanted to make my point clear.
Getting used to the Sand everywhere. At least it brings us map updates.
Exo you've got a really good point. I never thought of it like that.
Since you put it that way then I definately think the trader needs a little bit of nerfing. Trading in a 4v4 or 5v5 game is way to strong of a tactic in my opinion. If you want to take the no trader mode out, which I think would be very cool, then I suggest beta testing a version that attempts to balance the trader. I don't think a 4v4 or 5v5 can be won with equal skill levels on both teams if one team has a descent trader and the other one doesn't.
The only real problem that I have with mines, explosives, and long range is that noobs can't figure out how to counter them. They pick up bad habbits that are hard to break. I don't think noobs get to play with many really experienced teams very often becaue the experienced players don't want to play with the noobs. The experienced players are annoyed with the noobs who use lame tactics and the noobs use the lame tactics becasue the don't get to see experienced players counter them correctly.
I've personally seen clan bug guys in northrend waiting for an internal game in chat rooms for more than half an hour a couple times and i'm told by several people that waiting 2 hours or more happens too. All because no one wants to play a public game. Even some of the guys who had never played btanks only 1 month ago when I recruited them to Clan BT ask me "is it a public game?" when I ask them if they want to play because they get sick of playing with noobs. It's a catch 22. If you are a noob most good good players will likely not want to play with you, and if you finally do get good then you won't want to play with noobs anymore. I suggest yet again that the solution is a delayed starting option for public games. I believe this will make battle tanks more popular and fun to play in public games.
and also, I really hate to give away all my tricks so I'll just say you might want to double check that teleporting tip you're giving everyone...
Why's the rothchild family crest and the illuminati symbol on my 1 dollar bill? Why do rich and powerful American "christian" leaders have gay sex and worship a giant 40 foot stone owl at Beach Grove every year? Why doesn't anyone care?
qweqqweq Wrote:and also, I really hate to give away all my tricks so I'll just say you might want to double check that teleporting tip you're giving everyone...
What's wrong with it?
I already tried balancing the Trader, right when I started working on the map two years ago. I removed the No Trader Mode and was hoping that this would help balancing the Trader. As you see, it's the same situation as before. But I may take another attempt to make the concept of the Trader better for everyone.
But now this gets way too offtopic. If you want to talk further about this, create a new thread about it.
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Well the teleporter trick was written by exo somewhere else, so it was no longer a hidden trick
To the long Range "Limitation": A guy from my clan made a suggestion if it would be possible to make 1300Range Weapons a category of "long Range" And as long as you got one in you inventory you could loose 20 Move Speed or so.
I dont know if this is too hard, or that s possible, but I want to suggest it, because the scout is to fast for attacking it with other tanks when good scouts (players) have no or low delay. Delay is the only chance against several scouts to come into 1000 Range for basic magic or stun rocket :wink: - so the speed advantage makes it really difficult for lower range at the beginning.
(one scout with Longrange bombarding AND creeps cannon is not a problem. More are :mrgreen: )
I think the speed advantage of scout is the real problem, why this long range limitation thread exists
Random Player
- noob, nobody, medium, pro - we will see what happens ^^
