Kick System Improvement

[griffin1987]

I know there are already a ton of kick system related threads in the forum, but I don't want to say what's bad about the kick system this time, but how it can be improved.

I think it could easily be improved if you do the following things from your league bots (though i don't know if its possible concerning the exact time of kill/death):

1. Save messages (including time and player who wrote it) from the start of the game onwards
2. Save player + time when someone kills / dies
3. When someone tries to kick someone else (no matter if its possible or not), put the message data of the last minute into some array as well as the k/d data of the one trying to kick and the one being tried to kick, and continue to do so for the next minute
4. 1 minute later, or if the game ends sooner then at that time, write all the information gathered in there into the database or a log file

After about 100 games or so you should have enough data to think about some really good maths for the kick system ( if you want, i can scan / evaluate that data as well or come up with a kick system with the date, i've already done work on maps in the past as well as did modifications on the ghost++ bot you're using )


How about it?

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What I forgot to say:
You will need the messages to see why ppl are being kickvoted, that's why I think it would be wise to log them as well

[Velocity2k]

It's not possible to collect the suggested data because:

1. Save messages (including time and player who wrote it) from the start of the game onwards
2. Save player + time when someone kills / dies
3. When someone tries to kick someone else (no matter if its possible or not), put the message data of the last minute into some array as well as the k/d data of the one trying to kick and the one being tried to kick, and continue to do so for the next minute

1. The bot can save the messages - no problem here
2. The bot doesn't know when a kill or death happens
3. The bot could parse the messages for a -kick command so again no problem here, but we don't have the k/d ratio of the players.

[griffin1987]

It's not possible to collect the suggested data because:

1. Save messages (including time and player who wrote it) from the start of the game onwards
2. Save player + time when someone kills / dies
3. When someone tries to kick someone else (no matter if its possible or not), put the message data of the last minute into some array as well as the k/d data of the one trying to kick and the one being tried to kick, and continue to do so for the next minute

1. The bot can save the messages - no problem here
2. The bot doesn't know when a kill or death happens
3. The bot could parse the messages for a -kick command so again no problem here, but we don't have the k/d ratio of the players.

Wasnt there some interface standard defined which is also used for the league rating regarding the kill / death thing? Can't recall how it was called, but something like w2m or wmm or so ... http://www.codelain.com/forum/index.php?topic=15734.0 ?

[Velocity2k]

I think you are looking for the W3MMD standard: http://www.codelain.com/forum/index.php?topic=3340.0

But: we don't use it.

[griffin1987]

I think you are looking for the W3MMD standard: http://www.codelain.com/forum/index.php?topic=3340.0

But: we don't use it.

:(

But I've got a new suggestion:

Open a topic, make it sticky, and let people post replays there and say whom they would have liked to kick and was unkickable. Just like it's being done with ban request. And after some weeks I think it should be way easier to come up with a kick system at least most people agree on - I know, there's always some people who don't agree with something, but it really looks like people agree with the current kick system way less than with the old one.

How about it?

br

[ssl]

Open a topic, make it sticky, and let people post replays there and say whom they would have liked to kick and was unkickable.

Good idea in my opinion. When having collected enough data, we could make an excel sheet, insert the data somehow and then forge a new formula on how to handle kickvotes. You can then just modify this formula so that is catches most cases.

[Prog]

I don't think data helps a lot in this case. The problem is that what one claims to be a justified reason to kick varies so much. Also in my point of view it is not sufficient to go for some kind of democratic solution to kick systems. The one suffering most from kick possibitlities probably won't post here anyway (new/bad players). Mappers and Dev-Team are ought to consider them as well. It's similar to the situation in which minority rights should not (and often cannot) be changed by pure majority vote solutions.

[griffin1987]

I don't think data helps a lot in this case. The problem is that what one claims to be a justified reason to kick varies so much. Also in my point of view it is not sufficient to go for some kind of democratic solution to kick systems. The one suffering most from kick possibitlities probably won't post here anyway (new/bad players). Mappers and Dev-Team are ought to consider them as well. It's similar to the situation in which minority rights should not (and often cannot) be changed by pure majority vote solutions.

Okay, but that means that people should never be kickable? I'd be okay with that, as it is the case with most other maps as well, but -

then there should be a possibility to report other players ingame to have them banrequested.

Liked
!report xyz insulting the whole team

and that should automatically save the last 10 messages of that player as well I'd say.

How about it?

[Prog]

That does not imply that kick should be completely impossible, but that any kicksystem needs to be done with considerations of those we need to protect from abusive kicking. And in my point of view we (I think I can speak for the whole dev-team in this case) try to find kick system solutions which are not too easy to abuse, but still provide options to kick players who, for example, feed on purpose or are afk. I'm not claiming that our current solution is perfect and we are thankful to all reasonably formulated feedback and suggestions, but it is a very difficult task.


About your suggestion: While I like the idea to make reports/banrequests ingame possible, I'm not sure if it is possible for us to manage that. It is certainly easier to write just !report xyz ingame instantly as soon as one is angry about some behaviour, than to report here. That could lead to a flood of reports, which we would have to check. Also some of those ingame reports would not be done in the forum, as one would reassess a situation again before posting here, while the ingame report would probably be by mere affect. There might be also serverproblems (capacity/costs) with saving replays of reports, or the reports in general.

Nevertheless this is an idea we should think about. Maybe there are ways to manage those cases by checking only players which have been reportet in x+ games. And/Or apply this way of reports just for chat related issues (flames/insults/etc).

[griffin1987]

That does not imply that kick should be completely impossible, but that any kicksystem needs to be done with considerations of those we need to protect from abusive kicking. And in my point of view we (I think I can speak for the whole dev-team in this case) try to find kick system solutions which are not too easy to abuse, but still provide options to kick players who, for example, feed on purpose or are afk. I'm not claiming that our current solution is perfect and we are thankful to all reasonably formulated feedback and suggestions, but it is a very difficult task.


About your suggestion: While I like the idea to make reports/banrequests ingame possible, I'm not sure if it is possible for us to manage that. It is certainly easier to write just !report xyz ingame instantly as soon as one is angry about some behaviour, than to report here. That could lead to a flood of reports, which we would have to check. Also some of those ingame reports would not be done in the forum, as one would reassess a situation again before posting here, while the ingame report would probably be by mere affect. There might be also serverproblems (capacity/costs) with saving replays of reports, or the reports in general.

Nevertheless this is an idea we should think about. Maybe there are ways to manage those cases by checking only players which have been reportet in x+ games. And/Or apply this way of reports just for chat related issues (flames/insults/etc).

Just only post about the report command in forum, and don't list it on the start screen, then only ppl visiting the forum will use it

[Velocity2k]

We would have to save the replays with this command.

If you want to have lags in the game we can save them... Or you write a multithreaded version of the save-code.

And btw: I also think we will be flooded by reports after some weeks.