Imba Heavy Tank?

[Althend]

The heavy tank is just imba... Bonus against building (mortar team is much useful than the titan skill), bonus against creep (reduction of damage), bonus against small tank and stun (long range rocket with large damage and ability to stun), high damage skill on multiple targets and then can kill all creep around (ultima), large amount of hp.
This tanks just doesn't have real weakness, then everyone take it... It is a nice base destroyer, nice defender, nice attacker, able to counter all creep attack (when someone push and make appear creep around you in order to kill you), nice surviver...
No wonder why everyone take it...

In pro game, it is easy to see that this tanks is better than all "middle tanks".

A sure way to win is using long range (900-1050) with the heavy tank. If some low range try to run on you, just run back... The exploder need minimum 8800 gold of explosive in order to get you...

[SirJoghurt]

The heavy tank is just imba... Bonus against building (mortar team is much useful than the titan skill), bonus against creep (reduction of damage), bonus against small tank and stun (long range rocket with large damage and ability to stun), high damage skill on multiple targets and then can kill all creep around (ultima), large amount of hp.
This tanks just doesn't have real weakness, then everyone take it... It is a nice base destroyer, nice defender, nice attacker, able to counter all creep attack (when someone push and make appear creep around you in order to kill you), nice surviver...
No wonder why everyone take it...

In pro game, it is easy to see that this tanks is better than all "middle tanks".

A sure way to win is using long range (900-1050) with the heavy tank. If some low range try to run on you, just run back... The exploder need minimum 8800 gold of explosive in order to get you...

:roll:

i think you never played a 5on5 or 4on4 with really good gamers... then you should know that..it isnt as easy to play him..you can counter it with Gobo/Shredder/HeavyAir/ in mid game.. demon Tank too if someone choose it early

btw. with the GoblinTank Exploder Skill (the littel running ones :mrgreen: ).. its also easy to get down a Tinkertower barrier..just know how..or with the DT Lavaserpents or the GT Ghost's

and if you still have a Starttank after.. i would say 25-40 mins.. well you are a big n00b.. or you made something wrong..or the other team is too good so that you couldn'T earn enough money

it's an allround Tank..yes..thats cause i play it.. cause i like how you have to play it.. but thats the prob..with all Tanks.. many people saw someone handling a Tank very good..this differs from version to version... but also most people dont know how to play the Tank/Air they choose...then they wonder.. and leave.. a Tank doesnt play itself... the man/girl :mrgreen:
behind it..gives the choosen one the "skill"

littel example: someone choose light @ begin with fireballc.. going middle on the hill and camp with the fireballc... lol..

BT is a "move" game.. the only one whos decided to stay or "camp" is tinker..or guard, why sould be clear ^^ but if you have good enemys.. you should go on an fight @ front too...thats a prob too.. most ppl. dont move enough..

man i see so many ppl which think they are "good" but they are just n00bs ^^

same with schreddder..often choosen for the 3k start gold..but most guys don't know how to handle it and which weapon you should choose when you play this tactic...from begin

so the list could be going on with..Guardian,GhostT...

but how lucky.. i know.. one good player for every Tank in BT.. cause they like to play the tank they choose.. and most important..they know how to play it



eDiT_

and i must say it again... your view of "imba" or not must depend on clear games without leavers... with leavers there will be to 90% imbalance.. thats like in football when someone gets a red card or two... is the goal of the other team then setup smaller cause they are "only" 10 ? no..this fault only depend on the team which got the "leavers" if oyu dont like that.. play with -lai, when you are the host.. or live with it..

[Althend]

I think more that you have never met real heavy tank players T_t
Most of the time, heavy tank are easy to kill because many noob take them.


You can have the heavy tank after 14 min... It is not mid game... There is you main mistake.

The demon tank cost 10k and is in many way weaker than the heavy tank. Heavy tank +4500 gold weapon is better than demontank with nothing.
Concerning the heavy air, it 2500 more gold to pay for a balanced fight.
The ghost tank loses all his advantages because of heavy tank ultima...
The goblin tank is easy to stop by stuning him; when he run into you, just run away, he will never be able to use his abilities...

And i am not talking about camping but a simple strategy of "run".

[SirJoghurt]

I think more that you have never met real heavy tank players T_t

rofl... :mrgreen: ..see my Sig.. read all of my post ? i am heavyT player..if you play against me..believe me..you get in big trouble if your team doesnt act good ^^


Most of the time, heavy tank are easy to kill because many noob take them.

i said that too... so it cant be imba :roll:


You can have the heavy tank after 14 min... It is not mid game... There is you main mistake.

thats right..you can... again "can"... but then this one has no real good weapon...for later game ^^

The demon tank cost 10k and is in many way weaker than the heavy tank. Heavy tank +4500 gold weapon is better than demontank with nothing.

so..you should choose a tactic, when you change to DT..that you have... elctro canon..or swarm rockets...

Concerning the heavy air, it 2500 more gold to pay for a balanced fight.

thats the game

The ghost tank loses all his advantages because of heavy tank ultima...

if you know that...act so.. that it is no disadvantage :roll:

The goblin tank is easy to stop by stuning him; when he run into you, just run away, he will never be able to use his abilities...

easy said... in combination with Shreeder for example ...gl hF

And i am not talking about camping but a simple strategy of "run".

that was just btw... for getting ppl think about..more movement -.-

you forgott its a Team game.. and it makes sence to combinat..and work as one...if you would have really played good arranged games with guys you know.. and maybe TS.. you should know setting prices in compare to this or that.. you could get..is not hte way to win the game xD

dont play the Game..make it :mrgreen:

[Prog]

Saying the Heavy is imba and claiming that Joghurt never met real Heavy Tank players is just, hm,...nonsense?

Stop goblin tank by stunning? How can you stop a goblin tank by stunning when he and 2 other tanks use teleporter to get close to you? (And _every_ good goblin got teleporter)

Btw: Getting quite early Sky Tank or Demontank isn't that hard with Demolisher and Mulit bow in the middle. Demontank is not weaker than Heavy with 4,5k weapons; His abilitys are really good when correctly used (for example +25% damage from 3+ spells can make a huge difference)

[Tribulation]

You also can't refer to "pro games" all the time to justify your claims of the imbaness of certain tanks, weapons, and items - the vast majority of all players and games cannot be considered anywhere near "pro", and eliminating all alleged imbaness because a small minority feels it's necessary seems a little over the top, no offense. Heavy Tank can be countered, and it's slow, so yes you can counter a long range approach with a faster, better armed vehicle - but not if you've got a heli with 3 weapons or maybe a little hull, than something went wrong in the course of your creeping, but that's another point which has nothing to do with the imbaness of Heavy Tank - if it costs more than 5 times as much as a smaller vehicle, then hell yeah it needs a skill strong enough to kill at once and provide a stun against a mobile enemy. You'll get where I'm going

In response to the post made in between: good point, would be as easy to claim Goblin is imba, since it's hard to switch to air if the Goblin was the last one to get a bigger tank, but that's just tough luck than, his advantage in having a strong tank with speed an a stun is the reward for having waited that long with buying, assuming a normal course of events in a game.

[Prog]

You also can't refer to "pro games" all the time to justify your claims of the imbaness of certain tanks, weapons, and items - the vast majority of all players and games cannot be considered anywhere near "pro", and eliminating all alleged imbaness because a small minority feels it's necessary seems a little over the top, no offense.

I think you miss a certain aspect: The main question we have to ask ourself is "Where is it possible to see if someone wins through imbaness or skill?" Its quite obvious that we have to eleminate the skill factor like a variable in maths by trying to equalise the skill of both players/teams. "How can we find equal skilled players?" - The first negative answer is: "We can't", but we can find nearly equal avarage-temporal skill in so called "pro-games" (i don't like the word "pro" - noone does this professionally) now and then (even at bt-clan players you can find huge gaps between the players, so a real nearly skill-balanced game is quite hard to find). There we might find imbalance. Might? Of course just "might", not will, becouse some strats seem to be temporal imbalanced until someone finds the correct way adepting to it. Only if noone finds such a way for a very long time we are in the position to call it "imbalance".

[Gammagulp]

thx Prog ^^, i like this suggestion,

@2%HP i dont want to remove it, cause an Airship with 3600 Hp without hull maybe is too easy down with 2 x 1500 Damage Heavy rockets and little weapon help - I know some now would say - hey, the heavy cost 1000 Gold more or ... the others are also 2, but i mean something different.

If you reduce the Hp to much the abilities can quiet easy kill down little tanks as well.
Good middle players can get the heavy quiet fast - but not at lvl 10 usally. -- > The rocket now does only 900 damage.
Imagine a little chopter is also saving for heavy or even Goblin, cause you are now the heavy player.
The middle Player can go easy on lanes and is wtf instant killing the Chopter.
If the Chopter now buys a hull, cause he would be feeding, or more enemies do so - they got a real money problem to their new middle game tank and even couldn match up the heavy for maybe 5-7 minutes.
That means lowering Hp increased the killing rate through strong abilities to much - or you need even more Hulls in your slots than before.
I dont like Playing with 2 Gold hulls and 1 Powerpack :mrgreen:

@Heavy:
That dont mean the heavy is imba, cause I as example dont like to play it, cause i like Air mobility without buying extra speed for money or close Combat with bigger Tanks. I can kill 1 Heavy in 1on1 by the meant Multi Bow demolisher Tactic, cause the demolisher has enough Hp at first, to survive until bigger tank.
I also saw heavy Tank teams who failed, cause the other team got different Tanks - Air, tree, Goblin or shredder with more possibilities in tactic.

[Tribulation]

I agree, very well explained, sure that's the best way to find possibly imba items/tanks.

My point was twofold: firstly, I was trying to criticize the tendency to use the argument "yeah but in a pro game..." (I've used quotation marks because I neither like the word pro, we're talking about players who are very experienced in playing BT, and of course got a certain skill, not some Korean dude earing 200k p.a. with playing StarCraft) as a way to de-legitimize another's opinion, it's as easy as it's inacceptable to go in the direction of implying that other's just git it wrong because they're not pro - don't get me wrong, I'm not accusing anyone of having tried to do that, just making sure no one will ;-)

The second point is that there definitely are some tanks and some items that seem to be way better than others, even in a similar price range, but that's rarely due to imbaness. Some tanks and items, as explained above, are a lot easier to use (and thus more commonly used) than others, or perform very well in the narrow niche they're made for - like a mortar team, which in turn is highly fragile. There's always gonna be a "standard way" of playing the game, through using the tanks and items and order of buying which is mass compatible and will hence be pursued by the vast majority, because it's nearly without risk - and that might be perceived as imba if it's played in perfection.

[Althend]

because it's nearly without risk - and that might be perceived as imba if it's played in perfection.

You can play some other tank at perfection, they have weakness. I just mean that heavy tank doesn't have weakness.
I mean imba because in any game, you are always sure that the heavy tank is effective.

Stop goblin tank by stunning? How can you stop a goblin tank by stunning when he and 2 other tanks use teleporter to get close to you? (And _every_ good goblin got teleporter)

How do you do if you don't have teleport? Without allied players?
It is always possible to add external factors... This argument is uneffective.

rofl... :mrgreen: ..see my Sig.. read all of my post ? i am heavyT player..if you play against me..believe me..you get in big trouble if your team doesnt act good ^^

And did you play against me?
You are the first to say:

i think you never played a 5on5 or 4on4 with really good gamers...

And your main argument was:

you can counter it with Gobo/Shredder/HeavyAir/ in mid game.. demon Tank too if someone choose it early

Or we don't get the heavy tank at middle game but at 13-14 min... gobo and heavy air are bad argument because getting 7000-8000 gold with start tank is much more longer. Must all player take a shredder to fight against heavy tank? shredder has weakness (300 gold tank with nice ultima but weak skill against middle tank and obligation to play low range to be really effective), heavy doesn't have real one. ( speed of 280 isn't a real weakness...)

i said that too... so it cant be imba

I used the word "imba" but i just want to mean that heavy tank is unbalanced comparing to the other.

thats right..you can... again "can"... but then this one has no real good weapon...for later game ^^

A 2200 gold weapon at 14 min with heavy tank isn't real good weapon?
For later game, i didn't say players should keep the heavy. It is just that heavy is too powerfull for 14-30 min of the game.
If you play it nicely, you can be sure to rox...

thats the game

That's an argument in order to increase the balance...

if you know that...act so.. that it is no disadvantage :roll:

That isn't a valable argument... We know heavy tank doesn't have real weakness then it is not a disadvantage?

you forgott its a Team game.. and it makes sence to combinat..and work as one...if you would have really played good arranged games with guys you know.. and maybe TS.. you should know setting prices in compare to this or that.. you could get..is not hte way to win the game xD

With team game, we are always able to counter unbalanced things. That's not a reason to leave the appear...

Btw: Getting quite early Sky Tank or Demontank isn't that hard with Demolisher and Mulit bow in the middle. Demontank is not weaker than Heavy with 4,5k weapons; His abilitys are really good when correctly used (for example +25% damage from 3+ spells can make a huge difference)

When you get heavy tank with 2200 gold weapon at 14th min, you won't let 1000-3000hp tanks creep easily at middle...
I am not talking about noob players who play heavy tank but experimented one. With your demolisher and multibow at middle, you will have to kill creep during near 25-30 min in order to get enough money (and at the condition that noone harrass you with middle tanks...)
Getting money with low tank during the 15 first minute are easy but after, it is much more hard when enemies have middle tanks...

You also can't refer to "pro games" all the time to justify your claims of the imbaness of certain tanks, weapons, and items - the vast majority of all players and games cannot be considered anywhere near "pro", and eliminating all alleged imbaness because a small minority feels it's necessary seems a little over the top, no offense. Heavy Tank can be countered, and it's slow, so yes you can counter a long range approach with a faster, better armed vehicle - but not if you've got a heli with 3 weapons or maybe a little hull, than something went wrong in the course of your creeping, but that's another point which has nothing to do with the imbaness of Heavy Tank - if it costs more than 5 times as much as a smaller vehicle, then hell yeah it needs a skill strong enough to kill at once and provide a stun against a mobile enemy. You'll get where I'm going

I am not comparing heavy tank with start tanks. 280 speed is not really slow...
I am comparing heavy with other "middle" tanks, they all have real weakness but heavy doesn't.
(and don't talk about teleport etc... The heavy can also buy telep...)

In response to the post made in between: good point, would be as easy to claim Goblin is imba, since it's hard to switch to air if the Goblin was the last one to get a bigger tank, but that's just tough luck than, his advantage in having a strong tank with speed an a stun is the reward for having waited that long with buying, assuming a normal course of events in a game.

Goblin isn't imba because he has natural weakness, as low range skills, ground skill, higher cost (7000 is much more hard to fastely have than 5500)


Conclusion:
Ok, if you don't see any unbalance between 4000-10000 gold tanks and heavy tank. I have explained what i mean. I don't see why all tank have weakness and heavy doesn't real one. (280 speed isn' a huge weakness (and difference of 20 on speed isn't big), low hp for mortar isn't a real one (they end tower fastly and have high range, the delay of the skill isn't long)
There is many way to counter the heavy, but not after 14min... They need a lot of gold most of the time.
Teamplay can counter that but we can't count all the time on teamplay in order to counter unbalanced things...

And if you see real weakness concerning the heavy, tell me then. ^^

[Exodus]

Since you guys got kinda Offtopic I made a new thread for you.

[SirJoghurt]

Conclusion:
Ok, if you don't see any unbalance between 4000-10000 gold tanks and heavy tank.

no..i don't see... heavy is good like he is... he was "balanced" some time ago.. since that was done..it isn't as easy to play it..you want to tell me/us

i could say Shredder is imba @ the first 1-15 mins cause of his.. 3k Hp... and that if you creep good after 5-7 mins you get the first weapon.. but it isnt imba.. cause if your too stupid to creep...this tactic will not work..

and if you want to play me..come channel clan 1a2b on Europe Server.... i'm not afraid..if you play that good..as much you write.. gj .. but i dont think so ^^

just one question.. i now have.. do Mappers think HT is imba ? (what a luck they know me and my skill level..hihi)



and last words about this.. discussion.. i know many good players... some of them got more skill then me..some same level..some do really good work in Teamgame...but.. i just saw.. 2-5 players in Puplic games which impressed me playing heavy tank and kicked my ass in HT by using Abillitys,Movment,Tactic in the nearly 2 years i play BT ^^

[DerSatan]

in the heavy tank forum section, i suggested to make his damage reduction, not percentage, cuz i think thats a generally better solution for balance. that is not meant to make the HT weaker or something.

but indeed, the heavy tank is quite strong. i dont know if he is imba, but he really doesnt have a weakness (besides that there are tanks which move slightly or can stun slightly longer).

each one skill of him isnt imba, but the combination of 3 great allround-ablilities (rocket: very long range, nice damage, some stun; heavy armor: passive damage reduction; ultimate: nice damage, not-aiming AoE) makes me really think that he has no disadvantages.

maybe we could try to set his speed down a little bit. he is a heavy tank, with a heavy armor, i think that should be okay. and i dont think he would become weak if his speed was set to 260 or 270.

[Exodus]

So you want my opinion ... hm. I never liked the Heavy Tank
I always thought this tank is kinda "cheap" to play with. At some point it was really annoying that nearly everyone got a Heavy Tank. Thatswhy, one of the first things I did after I became Mapper of BT was: nerfing HT. That aside, I think that most people still play with Heavy Tank because they are used to it and it resembles their way of playing the best. And another thing, the Tank is in a price class, which seems to be the best when aiming for a good tank, without waiting too long to get there.
So there are several factors which make the Heavy the most popular tank out there.

I also have to agree to the point which Althend brought up, the HT is a very versatile tank. There are several ways how you could solve such a "problem". Since he performs good most situations, he can't be an expert in every one of them. So he could either be decent in a whole or specialised on some situations where he would the choice #1.
One case would to a overall nerf of his abilities, the other one to replacing one or two of his skills and give him a direction.

If I had to replace an ability of the Heavy I'd start with his ultimate, although I have no idea with which ability it should be replaced with. Thats because there are just too many skills like that, buts that an overall issue with BT in my opinion, there are a lot of skills which are just to similiar. But thats not the question now.



Sooo, all in all I think that no big changes are necessary, but maybe some little nerfs or a new ultimate (which shouldn't make him weaker, just better or weaker in some situations).

[Althend]

and if you want to play me..come channel clan 1a2b on Europe Server.... i'm not afraid..if you play that good..as much you write.. gj .. but i dont think so ^^

Add me to your f list, i am always open ^^

[TKF]

I feel like the HT is a cliché (That's maybe cuz I'm bored of seeing it every game).
Heavy tanks comes in almost same category as swarm rockets. Perfect weapon at a perfect price, same with heavy tank.

Heavy tanks have 4 areas of specialization due to his versatility.

Aimed Rocket - Adept at long range damage and sniping. Damage assist.
Mortar Team - Adept at razing structures. Damage assist against structures.
Armor Plating - Greatly reducing damage from creeps
Hail of Bombs - Kill all nearby creeps and damage nearby tanks. Damage assist.


Heavy tanks is tinkers worst enemy due to mortar skill

Hulless Light tanks and helis are in great danger due to the HT aiming rocket skill

Hail of bombs assist in pwning the tanks which might get a bit close, and cause additional damage with aimed rocket.

Skilling armor skill makes creep attacks almost useless.


____________________

So if you gonna make the tanks less versatile, it's gonna be a challenge


If HT is going to have a new ulti, perhaps a directional manual aim skill, but I don't think that's a really good idea... or a heavy tank artillery barrage :mrgreen: Hmm... I'm happy with Hail of bombs as it is now.

It would be funny to see a HT without it's instant AOE creep pwnage skill. I cannot imagine it. :S



Maybe a creative ulti change or nerf, but I cannot imagine changes to it's skills.

[SirJoghurt]

So you want my opinion ... hm. I never liked the Heavy Tank

h3h3...your opinion..i respect.. i hate bitchie GoblinT porters


I always thought this tank is kinda "cheap" to play with. At some point it was really annoying that nearly everyone got a Heavy Tank. Thatswhy, one of the first things I did after I became Mapper of BT was: nerfing HT.

that was done..and it was ok.. we had hard discussion about it i remeber.. atm i see many Light/Heavy Airships..Miner in early game...i would say since.. mhmh 3-5 month you see many "different" Tanks choosen... before that time there was always "one" Tanks which was choosen really often.. sometime it was Heavey.. then Gobo..Roflcopter...Infernal..when it was really imba ^^ in the last games i played i saw many Miners...but ithnk this point of you everyone got.. if you play LightTank from start.. you think " man so much Air users again...playing Air.."man so much miners".. you know :wink:

That aside, I think that most people still play with Heavy Tank because they are used to it and it resembles their way of playing the best. And another thing, the Tank is in a price class, which seems to be the best when aiming for a good tank, without waiting too long to get there.

thats right.. its the "mid price Tank".. good until late game..

So there are several factors which make the Heavy the most popular tank out there.
I also have to agree to the point which Althend brought up, the HT is a very versatile tank. There are several ways how you could solve such a "problem". Since he performs good most situations, he can't be an expert in every one of them. So he could either be decent in a whole or specialised on some situations where he would the choice #1.
One case would to a overall nerf of his abilities, the other one to replacing one or two of his skills and give him a direction.

thats the prob.. its called BatleTanks.. and this is the Heavy Tank.. so think about a "real" Tank and it's skills...i mean GhostT.. look @ the name "Ghost".. so it has skills which make him to a "Ghost" Tank...same with all other Tanks..

If I had to replace an ability of the Heavy I'd start with his ultimate, although I have no idea with which ability it should be replaced with. Thats because there are just too many skills like that, buts that an overall issue with BT in my opinion, there are a lot of skills which are just to similiar. But thats not the question now.

well..thats what i meant with "basic charakter" of BT... its right..many skills are nearly the "same".. but what you want to change...it like implenting a lasergun into counter strike :mrgreen:

Sooo, all in all I think that no big changes are necessary, but maybe some little nerfs or a new ultimate (which shouldn't make him weaker, just better or weaker in some situations).

well.. i think setting down.. the Speed a bit..and damage of Mortar Troops..would be ok..setting the Ultimate and Rocket down again..would make him...to "bad" in compare with the other Tanks..when you get in your mind how hard it is to play against good GoblinT players..or Light/Heavy Airship/Shreeder and after the first DemonT...has been choosen..or someone..saves money to abuse infernal...then its getting really hard to play

greetz

p.s its late...hope can read all..and here is the only forum i need to talk english :mrgreen:

[Althend]

well.. i think setting down.. the Speed a bit..and damage of Mortar Troops..would be ok..setting the Ultimate and Rocket down again..would make him...to "bad" in compare with the other Tanks..when you get in your mind how hard it is to play against good GoblinT players..or Light/Heavy Airship/Shreeder and after the first DemonT...has been choosen..or someone..saves money to abuse infernal...then its getting really hard to play

I think that reducing a bit more the speed (240-250?) would balance it, then this tank would have a real weakness. (heavy mean most of the time "slow")
Playing against good players (with any tank) must remain hard. (and the gob has weakness against air, it is compensated)
It is much more hard to abuse infernal since there are requirement. (but his ultima is still too much...)

[Prog]

(and the gob has weakness against air, it is compensated)

You've never seen a Gob using the Net launcher in late mid game, right?

This does not mean Goblin is imba, it just points out that "weakness" can't be seen as something any tank can't handle at all. Reflecting this on the Heavy Tank you can easily see his weakness which has been mentioned above: "Since he performs good most situations, he can't be an expert in every one of them". No need to change anything here in my point of view.

[Althend]

The gob has to compensate his weakness by item. It almost possible to compensate weakness by item.
If we count on item, all is always fine. (and having to compensate with net item against a airship costing 2500 gold less is a bit too much :o

"Since he performs good most situations, he can't be an expert in every one of them"


Currently, he is expert against creep and towers. Don't you agree? ^^