Double Mech / Ghost Tank / Antigrav / medivac

[griffin1987]

All four of these feel imbalanced to me - I've listed below why I think so.

Double Mech (seriously imbalanced):
Practically impossible to kill if you're 1:1 - still you can denie the enemy from creeping. And theyre pretty easy to play if you use some macro program - which, in my eyes, kinda defeats the whole game. I mean, I don't have anything agains programs for mapping keyboard shortcuts, and yes, I could use some macro programs myself (or write some, it's not that hard), but that's just not fair to those who're out to play for fun. And even after they can be killed 1:1 (about 20 mins in game), you can still use them for free shopping as well as tower rebuild. The game, I think, should be about fun, and people should measure their skills - not their tools. Or their knowledge about imbalanced game mechanics ...

Ghost Tank (seriously imbalanced):
The creeps of the ghost tank are just way too powerful. Everything else is fine I'd say, but I've seen those creeps kill a heavy tank in about 3 seconds, which isn't funny, as they take damage as well, don't give money, have a pretty low cooldown, level up for free with troop upgrades, and can't be killed anymore easily with many ultis (airship, gobo ulti depending on trooplevel as well as gobo ulti level). I'd say they should either
- have lower range,
- have lower damage,
- or have lower hp

Antigrav (a bit imbalanced in higher levels):
Two stuns, one is multistun, and the other is the strongest stun in the whole game. Remember that heli's bombardment stun has been reduced to 0.1 secs before, so something should be done about antigrav as well. While I find dimension shift to be in how it works, as it can backfire as will, the duration for what you can stun someone if you combine dimension shift and multistun is just way too long. Reducing shift duration would fix it imho.

Medivac (a bit imbalanced in higher levels):
weapon invulnerability is fine, as you can still kill with skills, but used as support skill for more than yourself it can get pretty overpowered. On the other hand, at start it's not that strong. So I'd vote for having the duration upgraded on the lower levels, while downgrading the duration on the higher levels. Or, another option (if that's possible): Instead of invulnerability, make it evade 75% and just upgrade lower level duration.

I hope there's gonna be some discussion now, as otherwise it would seem to me that everybody just knows about this and accepts it silently

And yes, I've had those thoughts for some time now, but as I've been playing btanks for more than 4 years now I know you should watch stuff for some time before voicing your oppinion on it.

Btw: Thanks to all the btanks devs, supporters, forum admins, bot provider(s), ... !

.50

[AeroniumX]

As for the double mech counter maybe make the repair mechs non-mechanic, or only allow the repair skill affect buildings and heroes only. I use the mech myself to save the 150 gold cost for teleporting back and fourth when i need an item. I see more and more players using and abusing the mech. Not funny when someone decides to take 6-7 mechs to help taking a cp for the fire spread, then its totally out of bounds imo. They are very resistant to abilities and weapons fire which kinda give them 2000-2500 hp each.


The ghosts of the ghost tank will get less damage bonus for each attack upgrade. They have a bit high hp when the ghost is using the ulti to boost max hp.


I've seen the antigrav and medivac been used in lategames due to their ultimates. Other tanks with damage based ulties is not very special.

[Exodus]

It's true, that the Ghosts are very strong, and they have been this way for years now. But now with the new ultimate, which enables the creeps to last significantly longer now, you can see just how strong they really are. Someone also mentioned, that the Advanced TC is also kinda op. This item also hasn't changed over the past years.

Well, but nobody complains about the Ghost Ultimate, I guess because it's finally useful ;) Even with the adjusted damage upgrade numbers, I'd guess, that the Ghosts are still very strong. So there has to happen something more.

Tech Mechs: maybe disable them from repairing other TMs? This way, there would be no reason to have more than one, since only one can repair a target at any given time.

As for the other two tanks: I'd like to hear some more opinions on them

[progg]

I justed started using double mech today vs another longranger on lane-.- and i think it's great! opponent can always also buy double mech, right?
Still if u disable mutual healing by mechs bring back the old healing ratio for tanks.

[UnifiedDoom]

opponent can always also buy double mech, right?

Any situation involving the only counter to a certain item or strategy being that same item or strategy seems rather boring and imbalanced to me actually. The primary example of this is teleporter actually, the only way to chase someone who runs away with a tp is to have a tp yourself and go right after them (hell even if they land on a breaker behind their lines they can still escape if you don't have tp to follow). I think this item being core on basically every single tank with every single strategy further proves my point.

As for mechs, in my person opinion the problem with them has always been the magic resistance not the heal. I feel as though if mechs regained the 90 hp/sec heal on tanks but lost their ability to take massive amounts of damage that would make using them more risky and dynamic like sending them to heal you after you force your opponent back on the lane but keeping them out of reach of stuns and weapons when your oponent is around rather than delibretely leaving them as fodder to take hits.

[AeroniumX]

It's true, that the Ghosts are very strong, and they have been this way for years now. But now with the new ultimate, which enables the creeps to last significantly longer now, you can see just how strong they really are. Someone also mentioned, that the Advanced TC is also kinda op.

Yeah, ghosts can sometimes attack hard, and sometimes it feels hard to kill them, especially 1v1 situations. This ability is very hard along with TC, since the ghost can buff their hp, and if either ghosts or troops are wiped out by a AoE spell, he can always resort one of them. But nothing is worse than a thunder tank with Advanced TC ^^

The Advanced TC is very super for killing base with cuz of the low cooldown of 35 seconds you also get 3 mortars. The Siege pack have 50 second cooldown.... You see the point.

Suggestion:
What if you set the normal TC cooldown to 40, it can summon a special creep in addition? The siege pack get 40 sec cooldown, and cuz of the reduced cooldown it can cost 3000 gold? Maybe. In that way both has same CD. Also give the Advanced TC 40 sec cooldown. Well, you can probably balance it better this was one possible way....



I agree that the magic resistance is a problem with the mechs. But also repairing each other is abuse imo.

[Smell.No.Evil]

Tech Mech: I like the repair function how it is at the moment is but have seen like 5 or more on a solo lane, which makes it almost impossible to kill someone and demotes the fight to a boring race for creeps. I suggest to limit the amount down to 1 or 2 Mechs for every player. Also I'm missing a 2400-2600 gold weapon which can be switched to anti-creep mode, how a bout making the Soul Stone or the Frost Magic a bit cheaper? I see them bought like never.

Ghost Tank: Balanced for the first time, the witches may be strong fighters with high damage but they
a) have a slow attack rate and only 750 range,
b) are easy to be dodged for a skilled player.
I still think it's the Advanced Troop Command which should be nerfed as already mentioned here http://btanks.net/forum/showthread.php?tid=3088 and here http://btanks.net/forum/showthread.php?t...9#pid32869

I don't have any problem with the current Antigrav or Medivac, what I don't like is the tank cannon of the Scout (too strong for a 500 gold tank) and the Demolisher (becomes too weak after level 10, compared to other tanks like Heli, Medivac, Antigrav).

Currently the best you can rush for is in my opinion an Earth Robot (lane) and a Hunter (mid).

[gozo1985]

i totally agree... not becouse hes a good mate

i guess the balancing i quiet good but some points (griffin wrote down now) really need a bit adjustment.

1)Antigrav: As you can read in my signature i really dont agree with a tank with 2 stuns!

2) Medivac/Trader: I also hate Invul becouse you cant counter it (Trader!). Medivac ulti is just for "weapons" invul. but for a start tank and for the game this is not a good choice. I agree with every other defensive spread shot (as it now is) for teammates like damage reduction, heavy increased regen, speed or whatever.

3) DoubleMech: Its too hard to kill them early and too easy later. I think you as programmer will find a way to balance this.. i trust

4) GhostsGhosts: I like the new useful ulti and i would agree if there are spawning less Ghosts. Did the adjustment of the Tower/Hero-Creep Damage really nerfed too less?

so far my oppinion

[Althend]

Hello


- Double mecks: I agree that this dynamic is kinda lame but remove healing is bad. I vote for a solution that doesn't reduce possiblity of gameplay: your meck can heal anything but you other meck. So your meck can heal other player meck. I have been experimenting (one secret trick for final btt :p) with Fighter; we did one meck each and manually move/repair each other. It is much harder and involve more skill and synchronisation. Making the meck unable to heal any meck would remove this possibility.

- Ghost tank: Let's see the problem in a balanced way. Any tiers2 tank (behalve storm?) can handle ghost. Ghost buy troop? U can too. Remember that ghost is useless without his troop. These troop have cd. Airship can just outrange ghost. heavy ahs big burst and ulti (and an heavy figting low range deserves to die), thunder has double passive damage skil l(canon and electric aura), goblin ahs ulti and hammer + aoe gob, earth is earth, guard is op guard, architect is not low range tank anyway. Any tank with stun jsut need to stun ghost and move back... let the creep being killed/disapear and then push the ghost. If u dont have stun? Do ur troop and run back and move back. Dealing with ghost is all about moving out of range of hist troop. What if he has telep? U can have telep too. I don't think that ghost is imba/op; nerfing it will make it useless. (and this tank has serious problem of long term build contrary to other tiers2) No ghost can handle tiers3 tank contrary to other tiers2. (
(Anyway,i vote for changing his ultimate, making it more useful at long term)

- Medivac: I don't see where is the problem. The medivac has no damage skill, u cant make him weaker. Reaching level 10 and higher is a long process. (and people already have tiers2-3 tank) People can insta kill a tiers1 tank (even with 2-3hull) at this point of the game.

- Antigrav: I also think that this tank is balanced. Antigrav takes huge risk. He has barely no real big burst (plasma and stun damage are ok until 10-15 first min?) his ulti is about ganking.


The thing in common between antigrav/medivac is that they are more team-tank. Their skill are more useful in case of gang and team fight. Nerfing them would push the game in the wrong direction i think.

[gozo1985]

hmm your right to im a bit confused now what to think. meet half way would be good i guess

again about mech: @althend i agree that ppl who know how to use mech and the macroing.. this really needs skill (i dont have it ) but that no problem. what the problem is, is that i totally agree with griffin that there needs to be something done soon. becouse its not possible to kill doublemech if they heal each other. every try to kill them will end up that they sent back for a bit heal and are back in action soon. so the enemy ends up in? -1 level and massive lost gold after short time. and in that case its a bit too imba imo. like i said a post before: mechs are too easy to kill later (were you really need them for mass repair) but unkillable in the early game.

i agree with medivac. lets keep it. its kinda imba with right timing but as you said, its not that hard to outtank him.

antigrav again: balanced isnt the right answer... he is balanced till level 10 then hes just an anooying enemy. a stun plus another multistun is really a thorn in my eye. i played vs someone and he totally controlled me when i had 1:0 and about 3/4 level more after he got level 10 (me heli 10 3/4). i tried same tac a game later and the enemy left when i reached level 11 after killing him 4 times.
everytime the same - you try to take sme advantage or an attack: enemy > jump, shift, stun - dead... if you lucky you have time to fire one skill but your dead anyway and the opponent dont need to be that good player for this tactic.

[Prog]

I really agree with Althend that 1) there is nothing a ghost can do which cannot be countered; and 2) Medivac and Antirav are balanced.

For the double mech case I suggest a change for the spell resistance. Spell resistance should be only avaible close to your own cps/main base, so that if you use the mechs to push the opponent to his tower the spell resistance ceases to exist and the mechs become vulnerable. In this way you can use double mech defensivly, but you won't outcreep your opponent so easily because you can't push him to his tower.

[griffin1987]

After all these oppinions and discussion there's still one thing left for me regarding ghost (as it seems to me that I'm not the only one seeing double-mech as being imbalanced and antigrav double-stun just a ted bit imbalanced during some minutes of the game):

Even IF you buy troops yourself, you're gonna benefit the ghost tank with its soul collector ability. Also, talking about lighting tank vs ghost tank: Ghost tank creeps almost instantly do a huge load of damage, while lighting aura takes time to do the same damage. Granted, thunder tank is 500 gold less. But compare it to airship: With ghost tank you just press a button and have 5 creeps taking damage for you and doing damage, while with airship you have to press a button and click, and wait for the skill to take effect, and then the ghost tank creeps might still survive with the ulti of the ghost tank.

And argumenting that the ghost tank doesn't scale well over time just underlines my agument of it being imbalanced - also, that simply isn't true, because ghost tank creeps upgrade with troop upgrades, while for example airship ulti does not. Think about it: You might have troop upgrade level 20 and your ghost tank creeps will be level 20, while your airship ulti still has the same damage as it had when you last leveled it up.

To summarize it, we've now got these things about ghost tank:
- ghost tank creeps level up with troop upgrades
- they aren't necessarily killable anymore with a single airship ulti, while airship costs the same. Still, as some of you said, you can easily outmaneuver it with an air tank. That is, if you survive the attack. Porting out isn't always an option if the ghost tank ports to cp. (forget the talk about telebreakers for now, as then I might argue that you can get stuck in a telebreaker as well trying to port out, which will make your skills useless, while the creeps of the ghost tank still do something)
- ghost tank creeps can pass through everything as can the ghost tank, and they absorb damage, while not giving any money.
- ghost tank can be countered by a heavy, but 1. heavy costs 1k more (so far, so okay) 2. ghost tank creeps can solo a heavy which hasn't got enough speed to escape and/or firepower to kill them fast enough

So, if we don't want to nerve ghost tank creeps further, how about switching the creeps with the current ulti? That way ghost tank would get creeps way later, while still being an option to push with normal troops.

Good / Bad suggestion?

---

- Medivac: I don't see where is the problem. The medivac has no damage skill, u cant make him weaker. Reaching level 10 and higher is a long process. (and people already have tiers2-3 tank) People can insta kill a tiers1 tank (even with 2-3hull) at this point of the game.

- Antigrav: I also think that this tank is balanced. Antigrav takes huge risk. He has barely no real big burst (plasma and stun damage are ok until 10-15 first min?) his ulti is about ganking.

The thing in common between antigrav/medivac is that they are more team-tank. Their skill are more useful in case of gang and team fight. Nerfing them would push the game in the wrong direction i think.

Medivac DOES have a damage skill. Splash damage btw, with a rather short cooldown. And no, you can't insta-kill a medivac with an upgraded gold hull and steel hull. Easy calculation: Player A takes a heavy tank selling his tier 1 tank. Cost him about 5k if you subtract the gold you get from selling your tank. For the same money, the medivac can buy a gold hull, which makes it impossible for you to insta-kill him anymore. And yeah, I really like the fact that medivac is more of a team tank, as it increases teamplay and makes the game more interesting. But if you look at it that way, you should compare it to other team tanks like the guard - and the guard is only able to heal itself when it is rooted, while the medivac does neither have much cast delay, nor does it loose mobility when casting its ulti.
And its ulti is only next to titan ulti, which cost 23.500 gold more.

How about instead of an weapon invul skill give it a skill like the earth tank has but like the current ulti have it being applied to teammates as well. So instead of invulnerability you get damage reduce?

About antigrav: The damage of its skill doesn't have anything to do with all that, as otherwise I could say that the rockets of the helicopter don't do much damage to a heavy. And it's about as much about ganking as every other stun skill - just that the antigrav has multistun as well as 2 stuns, whereas one is the most powerful through the whole game (doesn't dimension shift do percentual damage as well?).

I'm always trying to compare tanks fairly as (except for shredder) there's not a single tank in this game I don't play regularly. But still you have to compare tanks according to their cost, compare them to other tanks which cost more, and according how playable they are throughout the game (startgame, midgame, endgame). Thus, if you compare a Tank which costs 1.4k to one which costs 5.5k for example, you have to calculate in the additional equipment the lower tank can have in exchange for that.

Thanks for all your oppinions so far!

Best Regards

[Althend]

Making troop being hist ulti would make the tank useless.

Btanks best skill = stun. Ghost doesn't have one. His troop move slower than your tank. The fact that plasma airship ulti doesn't kill in one shot is good and is done to balance ghost.

The ghost tank is useless when he lose his troop. Ok he is good to capture cp/defend cp between 10-30min.


Soul collector?
You have the choice between soul collector, drain and troop. If the ghost take soul collector, u can dodge his troop even more easily. Any decent player wouldn't go in close range vs ghost if he has is troop.

If you remove the fact that that the ghost is effective in close range and when people cant avoid his troop. Please tell me how this tank would be useful anymore?

Close range fight, covering with troop, survivability in cp are his main strong point. His weakness: bad scale at long term, no stun, lot of mana, slow, no poke.

Airship game play is different from ghost; it is about mobility. Ok the ghost jsut have to use his skill, select his units and aim. Airship has plasma aoe, elektro aoe, drone and all with a low cd. The prupose of these tanks are really different. So yeah, the airship lose duel in cp if not moving but No, u don't play airship that way, u usually turn around ur enemy touching from the limit of ur range, the creeps, the tower.


(sorry if my comment seems mean, i don't intend to ^^)

[Exodus]

@griffin and Aeronium: You know, I really appreciate it, when you guys bring up balance discussions and suggestions like that! It's nice to see people starting to talk about it again, since I really need that input to improve BT :)

[griffin1987]

(sorry if my comment seems mean, i don't intend to ^^)[/color]

(np, same with me )

It's true you have to play airship differently, I agree with you on that, though airship skills - except for drones - don't have much range, and you pretty much need all skills just to kill the blue ghost creeps.

Also I don't think ghost is slow - just put a speedpack in, and then its the ONLY tank in the game which can pass through trees and obstacles while it can't be net'd. Oh, by the way: just buy nets and your point of keeping range with an airship becomes obsolete.

And even if I don't take this speciality as being imbalanced, the ghost is still able to attack AND defend pretty good, as those creeps do good damage AND take a lot of damage.

So, I've got 2 other suggestions:
1) make the creeps of ghost invul (so they don't take dmg anymore), and as soon as they move out of a certain range of the ghost they die/go down to 1hp and no more invul. Invul might sound a bit extreme but if you think about it: airship drones are invul as well
2) add a shockwave item to the game, like someone proposed before. Like the shockwave of gobo or inf, and with enough damage, to kill those creeps (should probably upgrade with troop level as well so it scales correctly). Should cost somewhere between 800 and 2k (considering that radar costs 1/3 of smoke, i think it's correct to have a creep killing item cost 1/3 of troops, though I don't know which troops to take as measure ... )

How about this then?

Best Regards

[Prog]

"just put a speedpack in"

A speedpack is really expensive. If you couple that with troops, the Ghost needs at least 8k additional gold to be competitive and it has nearly no weapons at that point, so without the creeps currently spawned it is useless. At the time the Ghost reaches speed pack, troops and a weapon like ice cannon there are Sky Tanks, Earths and probably even Frost Robots running around or at least very close and your ghost has still only 4-6k hp at that point.

[LIoOoOoIL]

im more about thinking to decrease the dmg of the ghosts-summons, but increase the range of them from 750? to 900, so the combination with "drain"(which got 900range so far i know) is more effectiv.
Also im for this range increase, cause they are kinda notgoodhandable vs airtanks (which can keep easily their range) + the tank is not forcd to play low-midrange to be really that strong.
For the "Net" point, there is usually always enough place u can flyaround, without crossing terrains like mountains etc.. But if u really got succeded net by a ghost tank, the summons wouldnt be so powerfull anymore.
Anyway a Sky-tank with orbital is so powerfull against a ghost tank.. (as example).
I really dont see any other changes needed.

[gozo1985]

His weakness: lot of mana

disagree. he doesnt need more mana then other tanks. as he has a spell with low cooldown its clear that you need more if you spam it instead of just use it when you really need it.

[griffin1987]

im more about thinking to decrease the dmg of the ghosts-summons, but increase the range of them from 750? to 900, so the combination with "drain"(which got 900range so far i know) is more effectiv.
Also im for this range increase, cause they are kinda notgoodhandable vs airtanks (which can keep easily their range) + the tank is not forcd to play low-midrange to be really that strong.
For the "Net" point, there is usually always enough place u can flyaround, without crossing terrains like mountains etc.. But if u really got succeded net by a ghost tank, the summons wouldnt be so powerfull anymore.
Anyway a Sky-tank with orbital is so powerfull against a ghost tank.. (as example).
I really dont see any other changes needed.

Decreasing dmg and increasing range sounds good to me as well, as it would make it more competitive for normal play and less problematic for defending/attacking a cp.

[Althend]

Actually, I report the double meck strat as a bug: http://btanks.net/forum/showthread.php?tid=3154