Imba Heavy Tank?

[DerSatan]

hes an expert against creeps, towers and exploders. but he does perform as well against everything else as any other tank.

[Prog]

Currently, he is expert against creep and towers. Don't you agree? ^^

I don't agree in that point. Lets make the term "expert" more explicit: The Tank most usefull in comparison to the other tanks in his cost-range (+-2500 Gold) on a certain aspect, in our case: Creeping (factors: killing creeps and getting damage while creeping) and destroying towers (factors: destroying tower, getting damage while doing this). Further we have to split both aspects into 2 points and concentrate ourself on lvl 10 Tanks:
*Enemy tanks are in range (~2000)
*There are no enemy tanks in range (~2000)

For simplicity reasons and the fact that every Tank lvl 10 can destroy a tower really easily when there are no enemy tanks we ignore the second point and concentrate ourself on the first one.

At first we should explore the tower damage which can be made by a heavy tank, which can't do any other tank. We got 3 Skills for this purpose:
*Rocket - mostly needed for different use, so we can't count on this skill
*Hail of Bombs - quite usefull, especially if we can hit the enemy tanks as well
*Mortars - the main skill your possibly reflecting to, but how usefull is he when there are enemy tanks near to you? In my opinion he's useless. The mortars won't make more than 2 shots each until they are killed by normal weapons or, if there are too many creeps around them, by skills. Furthermore we have to protect our mortars against creeps, while we get damage and might become the aim of enemy tanks (we used mana, so we can't defend us in an effective way - we don't have mana for rocket lvl 4 and ultimate!) and we are quite slow, so we can't escape that well (movement speed & possible blocking by creeps)

For Comparison we got Ghost Tank, Goblin, Air Ship, Sky Tank and (Guard):
*Ghost Tank got with his Summoning of the dead units which can damage towers quite fast and have more hp than mortars, so you can spawn them and drive away instantly, while they stil creep and damage the tower. You got the skill to heal your ghosts as well, so they get less damage.
*Goblin Tank can use his melee skill to make damage and stun towers. He can also use his ultimate and the goblin-riot. The advantage of the Goblin is, that he is faster than the Heavy Tank, so we don't have to be so scared of enemy tanks as we would be with the Heavy Tank.
*Air Ship is fast as well and can't be blocked, so he can escape really easily. His damage is lower (even though he will have 1k gold more for weapons than the heavy) and he got only one skill usefull against towers.
*Sky Tank is fast, got great spells against towers which don't use much time to cast (Flame Strike) and got more hp than Heavy. He cost 2,5k gold more than the heavy, but is against towers a lot better, becouse the enemy can't stop you from killing the towers at all.
*(Guard never fights alone, so the comparison is more difficult. His spawns got siege damage, so he kills tower rather fast as well)

In my opinion we can not say that the Heavy Tank is against towers better than any of this tanks, even the Air Ship is equally good.

Creeping:

Heavy Tanks lvl 10 normally got his skill spent like this: Rocket lvl 4, Hail of Bombs lvl 1, Mortars lvl 1 and 4 skillpoints on Tank Cannon/Heavy Armor. Lets say we have 3 upgraded basic magic and this skills and compare ourself to other tanks.

*Ghost Tank got with his Summoning of the dead units which creep very well, if the opponent doesn't kill them with his ultimate instantly (which is good for us as well) and we can spawn them and drive away instantly, while they stil creep. We got the skill to heal our ghosts as well, so they get less damage. Our Tank is cheaper, so we might have + 1 basic without an upgrade. Such a Ghost Tank will creep much better than any Heavy Tank.
*Goblin Tank got the goblin-riot to kill large groups of creeps. We don't have to go back to heal with the Goblin as quickly as with the Heavy Tank, becouse we're faster and get less damage from spells. Our Tank is more expensive, so we have -2 basic upgrades. Such a Goblin Tank will creep slightly worse than the Heavy.
*Air Ship is fast as well and can't be blocked, so we can escape really easily. We got 1k gold more for weapons which means +1 Basic without upgrade and got skills which are rather good for creeping. Such a Tank will creep maybe slightly better than a Heavy.
*Sky Tank is fast and got more hp than Heavy, so we can stay longer near creeps. The AoE-Skills can be used for creeping. The Tank costs 2,5k gold more than the heavy, so we have just 1 Basic Magic with upgrade. If we use our Skills we might creep ok, but not really well.

So we can conclude that the Heavy isn't an expert against towers, becouse there are Tanks which are better against them in near cost-range. In my point of view Heavy is even one of the worse Tanks against towers (except Tinker towers, but they are killed really easily in mid game by most Tanks) and the Heavy isn't an expert against creeps, becouse a Ghost Tank can creep better and some other Tanks creep nearly equally well as the Heavy Tank.


Btw: A Heavy Tank has to adopt to his slow speed against Goblin Tanks as well, for example with a teleporter or speed, or he'll get into huge problems in late mid-game.

[Althend]

You forget the "heavy armor" ability, it makes the heavy tank resist against creep and tower really well.
The mortar team has high range, it is not quit hard to kill creep before they join the mortar team.

But i admit that comparing to some tank (ghost and sky tank), the advantage of the heavy is not that much.
Summoned units from ghost has low range, they are easily killed by tower (even with the regen). But i admit that Ghost is nice against creep but he has to kill in order to get his benefits. The heavy tank, even without killing has strong resistance against creep. I think that their advantages is quit same. (maybe a bit better for ghost) (but heavy tank still have different other advantages that ghost doesn't)

The expertise of Goblin is low range and ground. (without any item to compensate)
I suppose he is the best against ground things but the cost is different and he is has more weakness Plus, we have to approach the tank from the tower to kill it, ghost and heavy doesn't have, they can use their units behind the creep.

Concerning the air ship, his ability to fly is an advantages for defence and attack but it is compensated by low hp, low defense. I don't think we can compare heavy with it.

*Ghost Tank got with his Summoning of the dead units which creep very well, if the opponent doesn't kill them with his ultimate instantly (which is good for us as well) and we can spawn them and drive away instantly, while they stil creep. We got the skill to heal our ghosts as well, so they get less damage. Our Tank is cheaper, so we might have + 1 basic without an upgrade. Such a Ghost Tank will creep much better than any Heavy Tank.

I admit that ghost tank is best than heavy against creep. But it is not because is best than heavy that heavy can't be also a sort of expert concerning them.

*Air Ship is fast as well and can't be blocked, so we can escape really easily. We got 1k gold more for weapons which means +1 Basic without upgrade and got skills which are rather good for creeping. Such a Tank will creep maybe slightly better than a Heavy.

Such a tank doesn't resist against creep.

I use bad word when i use "creeping", i mean more "advantages to kill and resist against creep"

Air units can't be considered because their advantage of flying is apart. (and compensated by low hp etc...)


I agree with you that ghost is best than heavy against creep and resisting them. But heavy still has an advantage against creep and has many other possibilities.

May be ghost could be a sort of support attcker against creep and heavy may be orientated to a sort of expert in defence againt creep and tanks.
What do you think?

[Prog]

*I didn’t forget the „Heavy Armor“ skill, but you have to keep in mind that we got only 4 skillpoints to spend on „Tank Cannon“ and „Heavy Armor“ on lvl 10, so we have our “creeping-skills” on a very low level, unless we sacrifice skills from mortars or even rocket, which we won’t do normally.

*The weakness of getting killed from towers quickly which the Ghost Tank’s summons are said to have, is not as big as you might think, because you can reduce the damage by splitting your summons to avoid AoE and give them heal.

*Concerning the Air Ship you mentioned the low hp, but I don’t see this that much of a disadvantage in point of creeping, because it’s quite easy to stay at a range where the creeps can’t attack you, but you can attack them.

May be ghost could be a sort of support attcker against creep and heavy may be orientated to a sort of expert in defence againt creep and tanks.
What do you think?

I agree that he is “some sort of expert”, but I’d rather see his expertise in his flexibility. There are better Tanks in every aspect, but there are worse Tanks there as well. In the part of defence against creeps for example the ghost tank (as you agreed on that) with his spawns (Its better to get no damage at all, than to have reduced damage). Defence against tanks is quite difficult to be compared, because there the skill factor got such huge influences, although it seems obvious that against ground tanks the Goblin is better.
This flexibility is the factor why the Heavy Tank is choosen so frequently and why most good teams get at least 1 goblin to counter them, but as i said before i don't consider this to be imbalanced.

[Althend]

*Concerning the Air Ship you mentioned the low hp, but I don’t see this that much of a disadvantage in point of creeping, because it’s quite easy to stay at a range where the creeps can’t attack you, but you can attack them.

I meaned against anything, low armor and low hp.
The ability to fly is against anything, and it is compensated by low hp against anything. (do you see what i mean?)

*I didn’t forget the „Heavy Armor“ skill, but you have to keep in mind that we got only 4 skillpoints to spend on „Tank Cannon“ and „Heavy Armor“ on lvl 10, so we have our “creeping-skills” on a very low level, unless we sacrifice skills from mortars or even rocket, which we won’t do normally.

And why not just taking 2l rocket, 3l heavy armor, 2lmortar and 1l hail of bomb?
Sometimes tank canon is not really usefull. (l3 tank canon = 180damage/sec, 2200 gold weapon, useful at begining, but at the end, much less)
Reducing 60 damage is not that bad ^^

because you can reduce the damage by splitting your summons to avoid AoE and give them heal.

Ok micromanagement, but it is quit hard to do that and keep moving your ghost at same time. (Respect, if you can do it really easily :p)

This flexibility is the factor why the Heavy Tank is choosen so frequently and why most good teams get at least 1 goblin to counter them, but as i said before i don't consider this to be imbalanced.

Then, at most of game one member must take a gobo because it is the way to fight heavy?
I feel it weird. I agree that the expertise of heavy may be flexibility but his skills seem someway a bit "too much", (i think about hail of bomb). I think it would be better to replace it.
I understand your point of view. I just feel its a bit "too easy" ^^

Should we suggest a poll?

[Tribulation]

What good would a poll do now? You're the only one insisting on the Heavy's alleged imbaness, while some others agree that a little nerfing of some skills and more emphasis (not necessarily boosting, but that's what it would come down to) on other skills wouldn't harm. So if Heavy was to become somewhat more specialized and less allround, what could be done to achieve that? Is taking away Hail of Bombs gonna do any good, and what should it be replaced by?

[Althend]

The poll would help to see if it's better to leave the heavy as he is right now, or nerf it a bit. And if a majority agrees to nerf/specialise a bit, then we should propose ideas to make it. No need to act hothead.

[Tribulation]

No need to act hothead.

Exactly ;=)

[DerSatan]

personally, i would like to change hail of bombs to an aimed AoE spell, more like the light tank's rocket swarm. that at least would require a little bit aiming and an additional click. maybe, he could do some more damage with this spell, balancing the AoE.


not a major change i know, but i think i would feel better with it

btw: the suggestions to make him a little slower and to make the damage reduction percentage (and not absolute) are still valid

[Tribulation]

Aight, now we're talking

I agree to the three points suggested, I guess getting a speed boost, if not a speed pack (at least once everybody's got a mid-level tank) is almost mandatory already anyway though, so it would be a minor nerf. But that's a good thing, I'm still convinced that HT doesn't need much adjusting, so these three seem sufficient to me.

[TKF]

It has only 280 speed. That's quite slow enough.


It's aimed rocket cost 11 mana pr level


It's ultimate cost 44 on level 1 and 11 increase in cost for every level.

If you skill Aimed rocket and Hail of bombs at max at level 10, you only have sufficient mana to use one of those immediately, thus being not able to deal high damage at once. When I'm the heavy tank, I buy 1 or 2 batteries just to be able to use both abilities.


Mortar skill is effective against structure as well as a minor weapon distraction in close combat in terms of protective cannon fodder. I've seen many HT players using this skill only for the purpose of shielding when takings cp's.


_______________

• When I suggested a while ago (Before release of 8.27) that the hail of bombs did to little damage, cuz it's ulti did relative low damage compared to it's price level. Goblin tank did 50% more damage with it's shockwave, and only cost 100 more!
  
  Before 8.27 it did only 600 + 200 pr level.
  
  
  I didn't expect it to be buffed higher than 675 + 225 pr level, but it did get 750 + 250 pr level instead and also 10% mp cost increase.

But back then I didn't notice any particular discussion about the heavy tanks is imba. I don't remember. (sry, I couldn't find the posts where I mentioned that)

[Dr.Urinal]

Here is an answer to the topic that doesn't lead to agrueing and most people can agree on. In the right hands, as well as all tanks in the right hands, Heavy can be very imbalnced. The thing you have to remember is that if your teamwork and your own skill as well as determination are high, you can do well. Now I have seen many people play heavy tank or save for a heavy tank. While they are saveing, I have killed or stopped them from farming because they hide in base. Other times I have seen people get heavy tanks much too early due to feeding and farming like crazy. It depends on the game, but a one sure thing is that a heavy tank with a teleporter and some farily good wpns can kill anyone, 1v1, unless the person you are fighting is in a heavy tank with a teleporter doing the same thing you are. Heavy tanks abilites are much too good. A heavy tank with a gold hull upgraded and some good wpns destroys a demon tank easily. One thing we can agree on is that the greater the cost, the more effective the tank, in most cases. Air with a steel or gold hull with fairly good wpns is just as good as a heavy tank with fairly good weapons. They get a teleporter you get one too, air with teleporter has the distinct advantage. Play your best is all you can do. Make sure to use the field and watch minimap, learn to counter teleporter on a heavy tank, even though you can't learn that skill vs bots, you'll have to get owned by it alot in order to learn.

[Tribulation]

Nothing can be imbalanced "in the right hands". It's either basically imbalanced, or it's not, you can skillfully take advantage of a tank's characteristics, but that does not make it imba.

[Tank-]

i have 2 issues with this tank one being the fact that its basicly immune to lazer towers dmg and that it makes mortar teams.. i suggest that the dmg reduction is replaced with more hp "the hull skill form TANK WARS" and that the mortar teams are reduced dmg/longer cd or replaced with another skill all together... if a your a tink with lvl 5 mods and even buy an extra repair bot for the tower it wont survive ONE heavy tank attack. its just 2 op vs towers it takes all the skill out of it and wastes the tinks time or the people who pay 2k for a tower to have it last 15 sec because of one tank. ive seen games last MABIE 20 mins because of this tank alone if more than one person gets it

[Tribulation]

Towers are static, you have to defend them against mortars, of course a static target alone has no chance against a long-range artillery, that's the point of having mortars as a counter to towers. Again: heavy tank costs far more than tinker, it's gotta be far more powerful. Plus, we already have a good suggestion for modifying the armor.

P.S. If a single player, or two, could end a game in 20mins with a heavy, the others fucked up.

[Frechheit]

Heavy tank is not really imba.

I am playing a lot of Pro games only.

And when there is a Player who plays Goblin tank there is a huge disadvantage for the heavy tanks!

Moreover with Air ships or Sky tanks u can creep a lot better.

greetz Frech

[Tank-]

Towers are static, you have to defend them against mortars, of course a static target alone has no chance against a long-range artillery, that's the point of having mortars as a counter to towers. Again: heavy tank costs far more than tinker, it's gotta be far more powerful. Plus, we already have a good suggestion for modifying the armor.

P.S. If a single player, or two, could end a game in 20mins with a heavy, the others fucked up.

all you need is one noob for them to feed on....

so your saying theres no suck thing as an endgame tink? so such thing as D? yes a heavy tank can oneshot a tink without a hull or even with a hull if your rockets maxed and he had more armor/hp but that doesnt mean you should destroy multi towers even with max mods and added repair bots with ease... yes mortars are for countering towers and they should be but they shouldnt be a tanks skill. it cost 2 much to replace a tower or time building your own to have it owned in a few sec and then the tank gets $ for it.... its OP imo change it to troop command or SOMETHING plz

[Tribulation]

You cannot use the fact that one feeder is enough against heavy tank, a feeder serves to make any tank he feeds overpowered.

What do you mean with D? I have seen people use tinkers in late-game, but not as successful as other tanks (sure you can get a gold hull or two which might give you enough hp to survive, and high-dps weapons), it doesn't have attack-skills, it relies on tower building. By the time you can use mines, everybody will have had the chance to go for a better tank. Thus, tinker can hardly be seen as a tank predestined to be used in late-game, it is possible, but not made for it.

The mortar teams are fine as they are, you're screwed without them if a tinker successfully takes over mid, and buying a siege pack is nice, but useless if the tinker has enough money to switch to another tank a couple of minutes later, than you might have wasted 2,5k, which is crucial at that stage of the game. As I said before: have your mates defend the towers, or do it yourself. Mortar teams are fragile, you gotta wait till the enemies' wave of creeps takes some time to arrive, have to watch out for defenders, and long-range weapons put in the towers - plenty of weaknesses; plus they have timed life.

TC would by pretty useless against a battery of towers, just more money for the tinker.

[RedNova]

Every tank has a few options laid to them for playing style. Which one you take and how you play it greatly influence how powerful you are in that particular game.

The strength of the heavy tank is that he can be customized to a large variety of situations, and thus can be problematic to figth against if you cannot match his particular play style. On the other side, there can be a large number of ways to counter every given situation, hence the heavy is not IMBA, because a crafty player can be the downside of such a tank.

Very often in my games the heavy tank is among the first tanks to be chosen as mid. This is both a boon and a curse: he got a mid-tank before everyone, therefore gaining an advantage for a brief period of time (or long if he keeps his adversary straggling), but he just tipped his hand: everyone know knows there is a heavy tank and will act accordingly. Usually this means intelligent players will buy more weapons that deal more damage on a single hit (to offset the damage reduction), and probably go for a hull, which can counter the dreaded one-shot kill from it's stun skill, until a better chassis is availiable.

Personnaly, I think of the heavy tank as the "Ruy and Ken" of battle tanks: easy to use, versatile, no overwhelming weaknesses or strengths. Once you learn how they play, you find that other tanks are much better suited for special situations. Hence it is a wildcard, demonstrated by the high occurence of the tank.