The Curse Of Unit Factories

[Exodus]

I think the factories and upgrades need a little rework. The main problem with upgrades is the increased income. It was implemented to give the player some benefits for buying an upgrade for the team. But it went another way, I think we have to remove the gold income from the upgrades and give the player another advantage from the upgrades, because a gold bonus will always be imbalanced in a way. The questions is: what should that other advantage be?

Saying that an issue is not imba because the other team is able to do the same isn't the right way to approach a problem like this, there should be other ways, too. Game Hunter's idea of an upgradable factory isn't really that bad.

[Bishounen]

Well, in the context of a competitive game where both sides are bound to get factories and upgrade, it is balanced.

Like I said, the main problem right now would be the player-specific advantages it gives, like gold and experience.

One big problem right now is experience gain is map-wide with regards to enemies that your own units kill. That's a potentially big problem because you can get factories or a troop control, then farm XP and money while sitting on your ass in your own base and never dying.

There's a lot of ways you could do this, I guess.
One way you could approach it is by upgrading factories individually, but making the upgrades a lot better. This would allow for better counter abilities, since people could attack an upgraded factory specifically.

Upgradeable factories would be alright. I think it'd severely destroy the allure of buying a factory, but hell, that might be a good thing.

As far as upgrading troops goes, I wasn't even aware that it gave increased income. That makes it a lot tougher. To be honest, I don't think most players are aware it increases income. People are upgrading enough now that they know it's vital for the team and not just a way to get more money.

[Game Hunter]

As far as upgrading troops goes, I wasn't even aware that it gave increased income. That makes it a lot tougher. To be honest, I don't think most players are aware it increases income. People are upgrading enough now that they know it's vital for the team and not just a way to get more money.

Usually that's how a Trader ends up being so successful: trade some, buy a couple factories, trade some more, upgrade the troops, bam. If you are able to max out the upgrades quickly, you can probably get about 32-34 upgrades, which means you're getting nearly 100% of the creeps' income in addition to the five-minute intervals. Supposing the game's even gone on that long, you can wait a few minutes and pull out a Frost- or Infernal-Bot, or just buy a couple nukes by swapping to Tinker and back. Simply put, upgrading is a serious method of gaining cash.

We could make it so that upgrading the creeps gives you a permanent aura that enhances the creeps' movespeed or attack speed or something. One upgrade = 5% IAS or +2 IMS (or both). It'd turn you into a walking barricade. Gold-wise, you could make it so that the player gets +50 gold per five-minute interval. Either or, I wouldn't do both. Keep the reinforcement gain and I think it might work out.

The major problem with factories is that, although they were infinitely-spawning before, now they have units that can actually kill things often. Perhaps the upgrades can be more like deciding what creeps you want to spawn (2000 base, 500 for two marines, 750 for commander, etc) with a certain maximum for how many per factory. Just a thought: I have no idea if that would be abused.

[TKF]

Where do the 3% bonus upgrade income come from? The force gold every 5 min?

[Game Hunter]

The text says something like "3% of the gold that your force gains is given to you." It ends up being added every second along with your per-sec income. Sometimes I think it's bugged, because I've been able to get upwards of 400 gold in a single second (maybe from towers, but that's still reaching) after upgrading about 30 times.

[Exodus]

When a creep of your force kills an enemy you get 3% of that bounty. Your force still gets the gold it normally would.

I think there is still a bug when the factorys of the enemy team gets destroyed, seems like you get too much gold then.

[Bishounen]

Interesting information, didn't know that.

Is there a particular reason we want Upgrades to give a player-specific bonus? They're definitely powerful enough as it is. I like the aura idea, though, that Game Hunter said.

[TKF]

Well I think someone earlier in this forum a while ago mentioned that the team gets bonus income every moment to compensate for the decreased creep income if the other team get some force factories destroyed. This is meant to end the game faster.

[TKF]

The curse is still here. Reinforcements suck ass now when they give 5 troops, and troop command provide short living troops, the factory is the way to go to create greater creep push for the price of swarm rockets, which indeed have longer range than swarm rockets limited range and effect.

[Bob666]

you mean waiting for 40 creeps to be spawned and move out then? arent the creeps timed, too? otherwise that should be a solution...

(and perhaps the troop command was nerfed a bit too much, but i dont know^^)

[Exodus]

The Troop Command is fine now as it is. Maybe the Reinforcements are too weak now, thats possible.

But regarding to the factory, adding a timer to the creeps spawned by the factory is too much I think. Thats not the right way to go. In that case I'd rather make a normal factory with an upgrade which is more expensive together than it is now (maybe with an increased tech-requirement).

[DerSatan]

factory spawned troops arent timed.

i just picked every flamethrowing guy and "saved" them until i had full supply ^^

but it sucks if the troops spawned in factories would die before getting to the front. (as exodus said)
maybe deny control over factory spawned troops? i think that would be ok.

reinforcements are really nerfed too much. but on the other hand, i never bought them until i was in the enemies base. :lol:

[Bob666]

i think a quite long time limit shouldnt be a problem, about 90 seconds... so it just isnt worth it not to move the units and wait until you have a good amount... instead they should die before you reach that status, but perhaps you are right and it is too much

( my post #1000 )

[TKF]

But regarding to the factory, adding a timer to the creeps spawned by the factory is too much I think. Thats not the right way to go. In that case I'd rather make a normal factory with an upgrade which is more expensive together than it is now (maybe with an increased tech-requirement).

And I suggested this earlier...

Talking about TC and spawns, someone earlier suggested a upgrade solution for the factory; what if you you could buy the factory as a cheap variant (2200), that spawns 2 marines that you own. You could upgrade it for additional (1100) gold to allow it to produce additional 1 commander, zeppelin and artillery. It will then be the same as the current factory. Also this will also make a cheaper factory as foothold in end game, where additional troops aren't necessary.

But the problem with this could be that players would be suprised and the triggers that checks which factorys, has to be tweaked and changed to compare those 2 kinds of factories. That could be to much work.

Factory (2200) purchase cost: 1 attack and 1 defense required.

Factory (Upgrade) (1100) upgrade cost: 2 attack and 2 defense required to initiate upgrade. Building value 3300 gold.

And when there are leavers, the factory does nothing...


The gold cost is your balancing adjustment, It could cost 3600 or 3300 or whatever...

But you mean it start as a regular factory that spawns 2 marines, And you apply upgrades to allow more production?

What is you idea? A triggerbased upgrade 3 step feature? First upgrade gives artillery, Seconds upgrades gives 1 zeppelin in addition, and Third upgrade gives 1 commander in addition, without changing the factory unit to "another factory"?, using custom value to show upgrade "level". Each upgrade could cost 500 gold, if the factory initially costs 2000? What's your idea?

[Exodus]

I know that you suggested this earlier, altough I thought that this idea wasn't bad, this wasn't necessary in my opinion.

Since you (and probably more player) think that the Factory is still too strong, we can implement this change. Personnally I'd implement only one big upgrade. Basic version of the factory costs 2200 then (like the old one) and an upgrade of about 1500 gold. As for you suggestion for the requirements, I'd at least double them.

[TKF]

I'm not against this solution. I liked the old factory before, cuz you could use it for siege purposes and it was cheap ^^, and upgrade it if you need additional troops. You gonna create a new fab for upgraded version, or use the same factory for both upgraded version and normal factory?

[Prog]

In my opinion there is no need to change the factorys. They are quite well balanced.

[Bob666]

thats my opinion, too... at least this makes a tactic possible where you buy the factory before you already have won

[TKF]

thats my opinion, too... at least this makes a tactic possible where you buy the factory before you already have won

About the requirements? It haspassed 20 minutes of the game then if the tech requirements is supposed to be 4 in attack and defense. It sounds high tech requirement to me.

Now this tactic isn't possible until 10 minutes has passed in the game if no one is upgrading team techs. 20 min is a bit too long perhaps...

[DerSatan]

i never faced a situation, were i wanted to buy something which had requirements, which werent complied (?) already.

maybe the trader does, dunno