OK trader is imba, what can we change about it?

[Dr.McNinja]

From the 'is trader still over powered?' topic i create this. I suggest all trader-change suggestions come here as i will update this first post with your suggestions.
Please write chort and concise ideas; im not going to reword your ideas. Ive been kind enough to reword suggestions from that topic.
http://forum.btanks.net/viewtopic.php?f=...57&start=0

:
► Introduce a level-based bounty modifier, punishing people who level extremely fast i.e. trader.

Qwerqqwerq:
► Cumulative bounty for every trader. Each trader adds bounty.

Dr.McNinja:
► 75% or 150% (hb) gold to xp. (instead of 100/200%)
► Decrease windwalk duration (its ridiculously long)
► Change the gold share rate to 60:40% instead of 50%, giving trader more gold to compensate for xp decrease.
► Give trader the option to keep all gold but halve xp gain. Harder to out-manouvre enemies due to low level skills but trades are 'worth' more gold.
► Trader loses XP for deaths.

Vomitus:
► "make trader base hp = 500 and 20% increment per level. So it would get 100hp per lvl and at lvl25 it would have 3000hp."
► Decrease the amount of XP that trader gets, which will make buying XP more reasonable.

GooglyBoogly:
► "15-25% reduction in xp gain - so 1gold :.85- .75 xp would be a reasonable place to start."
► Reduce armour from 3 to 0.

Althend:
► Reduce income given to allies.
► Reduce income given to allies which are from your own territory.

► "change the base bounty formula to include wood (either wood on hand or earned)"

[GooglyBoogly]

you forgot to mention my suggestion of 0 armour, down from 3.

[Althend]

Reduce income given to allies which are from enemy territory.

My suggestion was to reduce income give to ally for good that are inside your territory. Goods that are inside enemy territory would still give the same income due to the risk. (it would reduce benefits at beginning and give motivations to be offensive)

[Vomitus]

http://forum.btanks.net/viewtopic.php?f=...63&start=0
How about this topic, Dr.McNinja?
I think we have something to do with it...

[Dr.McNinja]

I guess theyre similar, but this isnt for 'diversifying' more to do with making the trader more balanced because it is clearly too powerful.

I.e. making the trader less powerful in some way.

imba = imbalanced, trader
op = overpowered, trader

Dont think there has been a single person who can justify why trader is balanced and not overpowered.

[qweqqweq]

my suggestion was not just a cumulative bounty for each "trade", but also to nerf the shit out of it in other ways too. i like a lot of everyone else's suggestions also in a ddition to my own.

[Exodus]

I already prepared a new version with some nerfs for the Trader and some other changes. This won't take that long this time, just needs some testing.

I guess you'll want to know what I did already.

• Trader gets 25% less XP, XP is not higher in HB anymore
  
• Blink will now trigger the Teleport Breaker and it's not possible anymore to blink into the enemy base
  
• Trader now has 1200 HP, but it increases by 5% each level (2700 HP max, was 2625 max before)
  
• Increased mana cost for Blink and Shadowwalk
  
• Trader can no longer buy Mine Defuse pack

This should be enough for now. Let's see after the next version how this will affect gameplay.

[Gammagulp]

Hmmm, I hope increasing manacost wont be to bad for the trader.
I experienced, that in the first level you generate about 1mana/sec. The lvl 1 blink and shadowwalk got a cooldown lower than the manaregeneration. So you could use them instant without extraregenerating mana. In the end the manacosts are quiet high. You usally could not use the skills so often even with extra batteries.

I would like to see higher start manacosts, but a bit lower increase to the end - or it could happen, that you just can use one ability 2times and the other 1 time and got no mana anymore. So you cannot trade effectively in the end or even better with a lower skilllevel

[Vomitus]

Trader can no longer buy Mine Defuse pack

This is a nerf, of course, but it's not logical. Why should trader has to spend two slots in inventory to defuse mines? Ultpack cannot be bought at the time when you need to do something with mines. I think it's just not fair. However, I do not see any good alternative solution here

As for mana cost, Gammagulp is right. At higher levels it already lacks of mana. Even buying 10 batteries you should gather all adjacent healers to restore your mana or you'll have to go to cp to heal mana in order just to trade effectively.

[Exodus]

As for mana cost, Gammagulp is right. At higher levels it already lacks of mana. Even buying 10 batteries you should gather all adjacent healers to restore your mana or you'll have to go to cp to heal mana in order just to trade effectively.

Just like it's meant to be.
Regarding the Defuse Pack, I know that this is not a good solution ... alternativly I could make another version of it, with the same cost and parts, just without the HP-Bonus, just for the Trader.

[benben10]

change the base bounty formula to include wood (either wood on hand or earned)

[Dr.McNinja]

Thank you exo! for nerfing my favourite tank.

EVERYONE USE TRADER AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE AHHHHH...

I think im going to use trader non stop until new version. Playing only 8.58 would be hax, and i like hax. Well only legit hax.

► XP
After some thought, ive decided trader being the same in hb mode to be bad but this can go both ways.
......
Actually, sorry, i thought you meant trader earned same amount of gold as normal, in hb. Even if that were the case..
HB mode would require more skill and needs kills for gold. Kills with trader is much much harder, while still trading.
Thats not the case, in hb mode trader gets 125% less xp, im fine with that. Trader makes 2x gold anyway.

► Mana Increase
Increasing mana costs mean jumping around the map (on defense) will be harder. This in turn means mana upgrades are important. Is this intended?
In one instance where enemy had entire map, i could jump around map and get 600g trade goods and more in a single trip only just. More mana cost would make it harder for people who dont up mana but then again, they probably arent pro enough to keep trading on defense. Food for thought.

►Current Trader
Any chances on keeping current trader (op) for a special trader on trader mode? or where both teams have trader? It just seems like in a trader on trader game its even, and nerfing it just makes it less fun while still being even. Its what i liked most about trader, the ridiculous xp gain so i can get to level 25 quickly, which ultimately serves little purpose (getting a normal tank seems like a tactical mistake). Dunno, maybe it will be just as fun.

Im not going to say its perfect, but youve responded swifly, very swiftly. TOO swiftly.
Thank you.

[Vomitus]

Im not going to say its perfect, but youve responded swifly, very swiftly. TOO swiftly.

Calm down, Dr.McNinja, take a deep breath. Everything is fine...

change the base bounty formula to include wood (either wood on hand or earned)

And what profit would non-trader tank achieve from that (spell slightingly)'wood'?

As for mana cost, Gammagulp is right. At higher levels it already lacks of mana. Even buying 10 batteries you should gather all adjacent healers to restore your mana or you'll have to go to cp to heal mana in order just to trade effectively.

Just like it's meant to be.

But such skills as blink(I accent low cooldown) intend frequent usage, much more frequent than other skills(because of low cooldown and all-around application). And its high mana cost would make no sense in its short cooldown because you would unable to use it that fast because your mana will drain out. You should be able to use it at least 3-4 times along with using once every other skill plus teleport assuming you have all 10 upgrades of mana.

[jonjon]

Battle tanks have made traders too lazy. People should be forced to trade within their own area and if they decide to trade in enemy territory, it should be high risk and high reward. But this is not the case. People are getting away with it too easily. The traders HP should be nerfed right down to around 500 so their trading paths are changed.

Trading should be a skill and yet it is a skill-less tank.

[Vomitus]

Btw, what about making trader items(that can be bought at trade master) cost wood instead of goods? Make unable to spend wood below initial 10 wood(or even 20).

Regarding the Defuse Pack, I know that this is not a good solution ... alternativly I could make another version of it, with the same cost and parts, just without the HP-Bonus, just for the Trader.

* You can also add here Trader's Defuse Pack(buyable for wood, without iron hull)
* Or you can just use the same defuse pack for the same price but when it applied to trader it should not give him hp bonus(something like AA gun/Bombs logic that depends on type of tank). I know, trader should pay extra 1250 gold for defuse pack but I think it's not a problem. Too bad trader wont be able to assemble defuse pack from the parts, which is also not a big deal(I dunno if tech mechs can assemble items).

[Dr.McNinja]

I would use a mine defuser if the enemy was using mines a lot and/or was very good at it. ON a trader, its seems like a waste of inventory slot for something that allies can do for you. Then again, dropping items with cooldowns and picking them up when cd is finished is viable. Need to have very good track of time. 1250g more expensive, without +hp will make defuse just a tactical loss i.e. not really worth getting. I say make the special trader defuser like all other trader items at trademaster. Eventually there will need to be a 2nd source of trader items.
Just wondering, what happens if you buy current defuser and put in a tower, will that allow defusing of mines from the tower? If yes, thats not too bad.

At first I liked the idea of wood based bounty but this is hardly important once you get to a certain point. Important stages are, buying 2 goods, buying 5 goods (facts) and after about the most expensive goods item (dunno how many wood) its just pointless in adding this bounty.

@jonjon
Completely agree but i do believe there is a gap between doing well and doing close to 100% efficientcy, which is what you hope to aim for as trader. Another thing is what kind of players the traders team has. Skilled players will make best use of the extra gold while a team of noobs may buy expensive weapons but just end up dying/feeding anyway. The efficient trader will get to resources and pawn them as quickly as possible spamming skills, using speed boost / teleportation and taking shortcuts. So in that respect, i think being a good trader invovles a lot of skill, all about knowing the map and terrain well and timing. As trader was fairly imba [before], it seemed like trader didnt have to try in order to greatly benefit the team e.g. hb mode.

[Gammagulp]

I think a special trader defuse pack at trade master would be good, too
I hope it is possible to play a 1200HP start trader with -25% XP and higher manacost skills too Maybe if enemies play longrange in mid and you are not higher than lvl 3 it might be very difficult selling goods there (then 1320HP).
--> I think it should be tested before just

[Dr.McNinja]

Um gamma, all versions are tested before release. This would safeguard against obvious mistakes but for this specific trader update, im guessing only trader will be tested by the testers.

[jonjon]

ok.... so I got a taste of the beta 8.59.

Played normal mode (as usual) and I thought I'd be the dedicated trader hunter just to test.

Here are my purchases in order:
Heli + Basic Cannon,
1st: Iron Hull Upgraded (no choice. If I had to hunt, I had to survive because their team mates would hunt me down)
2nd: Basic cannon (I couldn't kill him fast enough. By this time he had gained too much HP from levelling that I couldn't kill him. On top of that, he had invis, he had blink.)
3rd: Speed Pack (Had to keep up with his speed or my weapons would be useless)
4rd: Radar (Had to fight the invis)
5th: Teleport (Had to fight the blink)
6th: Diffuse Pack (By this time he got huge mine)
7th: Mines (At this point, I finally killed him)

I realised that I needed 3 mines instead of one because he ran them over with his invulnerability. I had to move and plant mines in much closer to enemy territory just to catch him off guard.

Tele breaker? Absolutely useless. Blink is often used to escape to the closest base while invis and invul is used to make the trade.

There is no use being a trader hunter. It makes you weak as piss and you can't create any meaningful damage. The trader was able to get around with full HP almost all the time. Even when I tele'd near, it was instant guard.

The other alternative is to play normally, power up and then hunt him which allows the opposing team (assuming they're of even skill) to get strong enough to defend their trader.

I'm not saying based on this strategy that the trader needs further nerfing. Trader hunter is a horrible strategy to use. I'm just proving a point that trader still gets away with it too easily. If it's able to maintain full HP almost all the time, then it shouldn't have a massive HP increase after each level and it should be reduced even further.

Although.. we still managed to win that game because we caught sides early (then mid) and then trying to block access to the trade master with factories. At that point it was useful to use tele breakers because the trader had to blink into the trade master.

[Dr.McNinja]

Very interesting...

"trader hunter/hunting" can be a profession but the way i see and use it is: 'task'.

So hunting a trader for me would involve conciously targeting trader whenever possible and keeping tabs on enemy trader, rather than enemy tanks. I dont see any tactical advantage in ebing a 'specialised' trader-hunter unless it involves playing normally with a normal build, or one that works 'normlaly' against tanks. Hunting a trader would involve what i described (the task) and perhaps a tweak of your build. For example, you might get speed boost or teleporter a bit earlier. Maybe not go short ranged (different build).

Still, interesting to say because hunting a trader would require this attitude, that its only a 'task' that each team member to add to their things to do list. YES it requires a whole team to effectively stall trader. The only other counter is to have your own trader. None? go trader yourself. IN games with trader, there should be one on each side but this is virtually impossible to enforce. Thats why trader is off by default in normal mode. Turning trader ON should be the mode rather than off with this recent change.

Exo:
- In custom modes menu, change the trader button to 'allow trader' rather than 'no trader' because default (normal) does not include trader.
- Dont let trader with invulnerability shield to trigger mines or trader becomes godly minesweeper in addition to other proffessions.

Thanks for sharing jonjon.