Compare between Shortrange and Longrange

[EarthR]

This is really irrelevant if they can't heal each other. A couple of spells and eventually it's too risky to keep them around. While I like the idea of keeping double mech on standby as a "counter to longrange only" (which is how I used it in 8.74 anyway) they'll need some form of healing first. (20-25hp/sec passive healing should be enough).

my point was to split the damage of lr weapons and not give the mech user huge advantage with mechs if they can heal.

Of course you can still lose creeps to your tower, that is the whole point of playing weapons which peak early game and lose in later game! If that wasn't the case, we could remove long range as well and proceed to have a basic magic snoozefest.

see the problem is that if you start scout, bombarding(upped) there isnt any weapon/tank combo that the enemy can buy which will have any advantage over you. Nothing at all. Especially when the first 5 min you are godlike with that build. after the first 5 min at worst you will have 2k gold earned and from this point on you can do anything. even switch tank since you only lose 250 gold from selling scout. Only if you waste the gold on another lr you lose your advantage as the time passes but if you have even a bit of skill the enemy cant do anything to take the upper hand lvl/gold wise as the game proceed even if you manage in the meanwhile to get around lets say 3 kills you will still be behind. the easiest way to play lane is lr and save for tank. You can do that even without getting any hull. while the enemy depending on his start tank might or might not need another weapon/hull just to keep up with creeps and survive

[Prog]

I do not see a problem. No decent player has problems farming against scout + 1 long range.

[UnifiedDoom]

Of course you can still lose creeps to your tower, that is the whole point of playing weapons which peak early game and lose in later game!

Yes, but that's the main problem! You don't have to keep longrange at all. Unlike with other games, in bt you don't have to commit to a particular build if you start with one. Scout+bombarding > iron hull > bombarding > tank (usually heavy/airship) > (Swarm/Electro) > (light fantastic/lightning magic) > tp > gold hull > tank, is currently one of the most powerful builds in existence from a side laner (in my opinion) and WAY too many people are using it. Are you going to tell me that said tank is much better with 2 fireball cannons instead of 2 bombarding rockets in their 30-40 minute inventory? I'd say the difference in negligible.

Earth: my point was to split the damage of lr weapons and not give the mech user huge advantage with mechs if they can heal.

I've seen a lot of heavies just throw their missles at mechs whenever the cooldown is ready, mech does not recover nearly fast enough to cope with this problem. You think it would be different with helicopter missles?

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I do not see a problem. No decent player has problems farming against scout + 1 long range.

I take it your definition of decent includes only people with +1700 elo , How about asking people like Sweden_BT and TC_mad_Bull why they take longrange scout on lane EVERY game.

[EarthR]

I do not see a problem. No decent player has problems farming against scout + 1 long range.

yet the decent player is always behind in creeps. depending on your start tank you may be in huge trouble.
and like i said in some other of my posts the point isnt if you wupti or lioooooil have no trouble against it you should see it in general like average player against average player

@unified good point about the damage the mechs would get :/ but i see no other alternative that would satisfy players like Prog or liooooil who are in dev team that would make them see it not op

[Perfektionist]

yet the decent player is always behind in creeps. depending on your start tank you may be in huge trouble.

thats the point.

and if you are a player who like to play different tanks every game (random) you get in huge trouble if you play versus a lr player.

And im still thinking, long range is only over powered if they uppgraded.

[Teo_live]

I haven't been idle in that regard in the last few weeks and after some internal discussions, we decided on a measure to tackle the long range situation.

Simple damage reduction is not going to work, that already happened before and had nearly no influence on the situation, since long range still keeps its advantage it already had. So we decided on the following: long range will attack buildings now, but it won't damage them.
Since normal phoenix-fire cannot be changed in such a way, long range weapons will then be based on the same skill as the Architect weapons. This required a lot of optimizations (from which the whole map will benefit), which are mostly done now. Because of this, it is now also possible to implement other changes, if necessary, but right now we want to see, how this will work out. You will see this change in the next beta version (if I ever manage to finish that in time).

The reason of the change should be obvious: make the long range weapon more situational, without completely removing its strength or making it useless.

I'm posting this here now, so you guys can already give your opinions on this change and already prepare for what is going to come

Does Acid Cannon REALLLLY need a nerf? Barely anyone is crazy enough to use the item as it stands, when I buy the item it is almost garenteed a flame magnet even when the gamble pays off. Even I am reluctant to buy the item now /sigh

I don't mind Bombarding/Torpedo's getting this change, they are bordering on OP for their price. Is there a way you can impliment this that leaves late game LR weapons alone, there is barely any reason to use Acid as is. Laughing at some poor soul buying a barricade and dying is one of the few pleasures gained from an acid cannon. Arguably the only pleasure >.>

This change will severly nerf rocket hails but im nuetral about those, I suppose others can discuss if the change should affect Rocket hail. Rocket hails are quite common so I am more concerned about the underused Acid Cannon personally.

[Crag_Hack]

in my oppinion lr is just op because of the 1 hit dmg compared to his range, maybe the speed could be downgrade like for the bombard get 0.9 sec (or 1.2 and by weap upgrade 0.9) so it make less dmg and for the energie torpedo so much that u dont can kill a heli with 2 shots
on the other hand is the aiming i dont know how it is randomed and maybe it is just a feeling, but all u guys talking here about luck is ridiculus bc the weaps has to much luck for exampel i just tried a tinker with torpedo on lane sometimes and i got so much "luck" that i killed a enemies heli 3 times when he surrounded by his creeps or another example (was a quali game) i killed a antigrav much times he got molotov and then hull after i killed him sometimes then he tried to kill my towers by all ways he got 2 times morters and so on but he cant and i still had only 2 torpedo and was in front of his cp (and he tried to kill me with q i tped or stun me but i went before and killed him much times)
i think the burst dont help so much too bc its only block every 3. shot by bombard or any 2. torpedo but only if u dont hit him otherwise by tank cannon, another weap like basic, skill, or towers from tinker so there to much things who can stop burst and for 1k its just to much i think 800 for burst was better to conter lr but i prefer a iron hull for 1250 instead of burst for 1k (especialy on time seen bc is more useful by cost when upgraded)
allover i think much of the past changes gifts lr more and more bc double mech taken, burst cost raise up, shortrange loose power bc of deflection. the only good thing u got against lr is maintenance (whats allready good against other stuff like demo mines or other weaps too)


so they should given more ways to conter lr maybe cheap tp who lets tp u 600 range and the shoting system especialy for lr should be fixed or nerf the lr
ps.: to all the people who saying lr in later game sucks i hope u know u can take different ranged weaps in ur inventory so what is if i take lr and scout for begin and change it later to mid or close range (best example http://league.btanks.net/player.php?playerid=8207 lllIlIlll)

[Perfektionist]

in my oppinion lr is just op because of the 1 hit dmg compared to his range, maybe the speed could be downgrade like for the bombard get 0.9 sec (or 1.2 and by weap upgrade 0.9) so it make less dmg and for the energie torpedo so much that u dont can kill a heli with 2 shots
on the other hand is the aiming i dont know how it is randomed and maybe it is just a feeling, but all u guys talking here about luck is ridiculus bc the weaps has to much luck for exampel i just tried a tinker with torpedo on lane sometimes and i got so much "luck" that i killed a enemies heli 3 times when he surrounded by his creeps or another example (was a quali game) i killed a antigrav much times he got molotov and then hull after i killed him sometimes then he tried to kill my towers by all ways he got 2 times morters and so on but he cant and i still had only 2 torpedo and was in front of his cp (and he tried to kill me with q i tped or stun me but i went before and killed him much times)
i think the burst dont help so much too bc its only block every 3. shot by bombard or any 2. torpedo but only if u dont hit him otherwise by tank cannon, another weap like basic, skill, or towers from tinker so there to much things who can stop burst and for 1k its just to much i think 800 for burst was better to conter lr but i prefer a iron hull for 1250 instead of burst for 1k (especialy on time seen bc is more useful by cost when upgraded)
allover i think much of the past changes gifts lr more and more bc double mech taken, burst cost raise up, shortrange loose power bc of deflection. the only good thing u got against lr is maintenance (whats allready good against other stuff like demo mines or other weaps too)


so they should given more ways to conter lr maybe cheap tp who lets tp u 600 range and the shoting system especialy for lr should be fixed or nerf the lr
ps.: to all the people who saying lr in later game sucks i hope u know u can take different ranged weaps in ur inventory so what is if i take lr and scout for begin and change it later to mid or close range (best example http://league.btanks.net/player.php?playerid=8207 lllIlIlll)

Thats what i say.

Hmm a teleporter is a good idea. Maybe for 1500 Gold. But you cant combine them with speed so the normal teleport isnt useless.

Acidcannon is only usefull to damage the enemy before he comes into your close range. If you got 1 Acid and two Lighting Magic you got a big averntage of you enemy. But the rangeplayer does not understand that only lr is shit in the endgame.

[Teo_live]

The "problems" (if they even deserve to be called that) seem to be with Bombards/Torpedos being op on sidelane. So only they should be nerfed (and/or changes to side lane).

Exodus I hope you leave Rocket Hail and Acid Cannon alone, they really don't need the nerf and they are not what people are complaining (well maybe only perfektionist). If anything Acid Cannon needs a buff, the pathetically minor 3k upgrade is laughable for a 12k weapon. I love the weapon but I must admit I really have trouble now days making use of it without failing and/or getting flamed. Mid/Late game LR is kinda weak as is, so please just the bombards and torpedos for now...

[stibi-]

ps.: to all the people who saying lr in later game sucks i hope u know u can take different ranged weaps in ur inventory so what is if i take lr and scout for begin and change it later to mid or close range (best example http://league.btanks.net/player.php?playerid=8207 lllIlIlll)

29 won / 23 lost games
avg kill / death ratio 21.08 / 19.37
i'm not impressed

imho the range discussion is overrated
if i.e. bennie slaps you with scout/bombard he'd do it with any other weapon aswell

[Perfektionist]

The "problems" (if they even deserve to be called that) seem to be with Bombards/Torpedos being op on sidelane. So only they should be nerfed (and/or changes to side lane).

Exodus I hope you leave Rocket Hail and Acid Cannon alone, they really don't need the nerf and they are not what people are complaining (well maybe only perfektionist). If anything Acid Cannon needs a buff, the pathetically minor 3k upgrade is laughable for a 12k weapon. I love the weapon but I must admit I really have trouble now days making use of it without failing and/or getting flamed. Mid/Late game LR is kinda weak as is, so please just the bombards and torpedos for now...

?? i never want to reduce the dmg of the rockedhail or the acid cannon!!. I think the rockedhail is alittle bit too expencive! For 6k you can buy why better weapons.

And i already mention in a other thread that the uppgrade price of the acid cannon is too low.

[Teo_live]

That's why I said maybe, I was unsure

Glad to see you agree that Rocket Hail/Acid don't deserve a nerf. They are not overpowered like Torpedos/bombards so they don't deserve the tower nerf. Like you I also hope Acid cannon upgrade price increases (and/or a weapon better then acid is added for late game), 3k upgrade is pathetic considering it is the best LR weapon available.

[Wupti]

Reason why so many people complain about lr is because you cling to must for "mainstream builds", have your ever tryed schredder against a ranged lane? it's cheap and very effective. Goblin tank can work aswell if the enemy picks airship or for rich people demon that nuke them hard.

@ exodus. maybe change the gold of net from 600 to 300? I think it is way too exspensive compared to other stuff in game

[UnifiedDoom]

Reason why so many people complain about lr is because you cling to must for "mainstream builds",

I'm talking about longrange from 0-15 minutes. It doesn't matter what tank you random, unless you take like glaive thrower/bonfire or something, any build will be automatically "mainstream" as you put it.

I complain about longrange lane because there is no way to fight against it effectively, against a decent opponent with ANY build during this time other than long range itself. Hell the person doesn't even have to be freaking decent, tell me you haven't noticed all the terrible players dominating lanes simply because of longrange?

have your ever tryed schredder against a ranged lane? it's cheap and very effective.

Shredder is almost completely useless before lvl 10. And unless the LR fed you, they will have a significant level lead over you. There are also many ways to counter shredder.

You're going to have to tell me your item composition from the start on this build before you can use this as a viable argument. Say your opponent is scout/heli+bombard and you're random tank+weapon.

Goblin tank can work aswell if the enemy picks airship or for rich people demon that nuke them hard.

Saving for these expensive tanks isn't really viable. The amount of money/exp you would lose due to camping with a tier 1 tank is enormous. Imo if you want to survive against a LR opponent you have to opt for cheaper tank solutions that can kill creeps (ghost and thunder are your best bet).

@ exodus. maybe change the gold of net from 600 to 300? I think it is way too exspensive compared to other stuff in game

This is a good idea

[BENNIE.FM]

hrmm will have to disagree with net the cost 300 is to cheap its half the price goblin heavy and alot of other tanks still able to just as effective lowering the cost may tilt the balance ,either add a 4th net or make it 500 half is dramatic and just leads the way for heavy gobo and other tanks to net

you do realize when a tank invest in a flak he can easily be countered by going ground or just netting the air tank if you are air.

But if your a ground tank you can net a ground air tank nets cost must be balanced correctly 300 is to cheap 500 for 3 nets is the buy i would go.

imho the range discussion is overrated
if i.e. bennie slaps you with scout/bombard he'd do it with any other weapon aswell

i don't slap anyone

and i agree with stibi this discussion is overrated to me

hrmm maybe wupti will read this but cant you out creep a scout with basic or Molotov cause i can so im sure you can and im sure alot of others can also

@unified i know if someone stays perfect range etc its impossible you must just hold out and i know it doesn't seem fair i agree to a certain extent

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and i know we talking early game here but when lowering the cost of net it is important to consider the whole game i think 600 is viable unless we add a system were nets price gets increased

lets say 50 gold every 5 minutes until it reaches 600 gold

so at 0 min nets cost 300 then 350 at 5 min then 400 at 10 and so on

[Perfektionist]

@ exodus. maybe change the gold of net from 600 to 300? I think it is way too exspensive compared to other stuff in game

but the problem of nets is, that they pull the enemy to you if they couldnt land on there current position. Shredder Ulti (only air) for 300 gold?

maybe the developer can rework a net by self with scripting. That the net works like a stun with the ability to remove the air advantage.

If nets cant teleport 300 - 400 gold are ok.

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I'm talking about longrange from 0-15 minutes.

and only if they uppgraded! why rangeweapon can uppgrade there damage? Other starter weapons like bow, glaive cannon, molotov cocktail, basic cannon, light plasma gun, fan of knives, fireball cannon, electro cannon, (ice cannon is too expensive for a starter weapon) basic magic and tornado summoner cant uppgrade there main damage. They only can uppgrade there refirerate.

[EarthR]

hrmm will have to disagree with net the cost 300 is to cheap its half the price goblin heavy and alot of other tanks still able to just as effective lowering the cost may tilt the balance ,either add a 4th net or make it 500 half is dramatic and just leads the way for heavy gobo and other tanks to net

bennie you say that because you play like 90% of the games with airship .
But imo nets should cost lets say 300. Because:
1) you waste gold to get some kills or in sf case to save a teamate from enemy stun
2) there are many tanks that have no stun or cant do damage to air tanks so they have to use nets
3) net doest equal kill and in most cases the enemy survives if he plays right so the net user wastes gold.

overall the player who is forced to use net to counter enemy air enemy (lets face it air tanks have huge advantages over ground ones) should alwasy get his gold back plus some amount extra because he uses nets and because he spends gold on it otherwise with the current cost of net in order to make profit from nets you need to wait till 30 min + and kill when you use all 3 nets

[eSVau]

Even so its offtopic i support cheaper nets.

[UnifiedDoom]

and only if they uppgraded! why rangeweapon can uppgrade there damage? Other starter weapons like bow, glaive cannon, molotov cocktail, basic cannon, light plasma gun, fan of knives, fireball cannon, electro cannon, (ice cannon is too expensive for a starter weapon) basic magic and tornado summoner cant uppgrade there main damage. They only can uppgrade there refirerate.

Perfektionist, I really think you don't understand what you're talking about. Fire-rate and damage are unimportant (except in cases when the enemy has burst/deflective) it's DPS and Range that are important. It doesn't matter if the upgrade increases fire-rate or flat damage it increases DPS either way, this is just common sense.

[Wupti]

Well bennie 4x maintenance = 1 net, to me that doesnt seem fair at all.
besides when you use net and get kill you only gain like 100 gold (in early game) which means you have to be 100% sure to get the kill everytime, i think this is one of the reasons heli longrange is so common these days, if you changed net to 300 you would only have to kill them every 2nd time to gain 100 gold.