2007-10-24, 05:20:09
I just figured I'd contest this post...
Firstly, many abilities as a standalone could be considered overpowered. But it's about how the tank turns out as a package, and it just so happens the Behemoth doesn't have much in the way of combat abilities.
Secondly, it's the HP scaling you should expect. Infernal-Robot gains like +300 HP per level I believe, so +400 HP per level is being LENIENT if anything. The greater base hit points is similar to what was done with the Heavy Tank, loss of speed for greater durability, though TV does have a synergistic effect (when active...)
Third, a temporary 35% magic resistance is NOT invulnerability. Though thinking about it, with batteries opening the possibility of like a 300 energy capacity the drain should perhaps be increased to 10 a second when maxed and the other levels adjusted accordingly... Either way, think of it as two free Gold Hulls and a free speed booster on a normally faster tank when active, and *nothing* when not active. And consider the price tag afterward, since the Basic Cannon is like a free upgraded Swarm Rockets at L13, minus 100 range.
I can see the Behemoth very tough to stop in terms of base harassment, but in my perspective it's like a Heavy Tank to Light Tanks. What do you expect? When I nab a Frost Robot it's about the same thing, just they're sometimes capable of turning the game into a stalemate by playing 100% defense. That's one of the reasons for this tank. If you couldn't manage enough gold to remain a valuable player on the field while the other guy was slowly accumulating it for a Behemoth, you were probably getting smashed anyway.
In terms of fighting it up front, yes it's tough there too. Again, if you couldn't manage a Frost Robot with an extra 12K-18K gold to spend on other things, you had it coming in the form of weapons or even better, a tank.
To narrow it down even further, you might say the Behemoth doesn't have much in the way of combat ability. Yes, it has TONS of hit points and TV to smash a weaker opponent with. What it doesn't have? Abilities that can be used in the thick of combat on a whim. Devastate isn't a targetted ability, so against a fast (or just aerial) tank it can miss, though against tight groups or someone that isn't paying attention it may have a decent effect. Ultimatum is just premeditated ability all the way unless you're lucky enough to hit someone with it when he's reaching for a sip of water or something. As for Terminal Velocity, you can't have it on all the time. Coupled with the fact its other "imba" abilities cost energy, and you may find yet those hit points are dead weight as you're just kinda there while your opponents chip away at you. That is how the Helicopter beats the Airship, that is how Ali beat Frazier.
Quick simplification:
Terminal Velocity - Combat Ability (NOT to be confused with Passive as it does cost mana. Yes, as a standalone ability it screams imbalance, but you have to consider the overall package of what makes a tank imba or not. Same consideration is why we don't have a tank with four 2,000 range nukes or something.)
Armor Plating/Whatever Cheesy Name I Gave It - Passive and somewhat effective for tanking Troop Command, though interestingly enough that item STILL gives you trouble if you didn't have Devastate on the ready.
Devastate - Premeditated Ability, you must have a good idea of where your target(s) are going to wind up or you'll waste it and give your opponent an opening with superior weaponry.
Ultimatum - Premeditated Ability
Basic Cannon - Needs no introduction.
This I feel is the most ignorant statement in your post. I mean, it's not like a Photon Bombs can change the way the game is going like a Frost Robot or Infernal Robot can either. That's because tanks overall have the better package, and when I suggested the Behemoth concept I kept in mind how all the tanks seem to scale and as such I'd say the only balance issue with the Behemoth is perhaps TV is too cheap with batteries, that's about it.
Yes I believe if balanced it would be a great tank to have in the game. Perhaps even implement some of its concepts into a lower-tier tank, though the Demolisher has one of them on a much much tougher scale... But I feel I should remind you that even if your tank is geared up, 25,000 gold isn't easy to save up, especially if your opponents are giving you trouble as well.
Oh so many times I've held out with a Helicopter with an upgrade Iron Hull and 5X Light Plasma Guns until Frost-Robot to begin taking apart my opponents... A tank with this pricetag I don't think I could hold out long enough, especially if it weren't placed inside my own base...
Okay great, you made me want to think of more ideas.
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General Tank Specifications:
Tank Name: Hydra
Cost: 8,000g
Hitpoints: 5,000 + 120 per level
Size/Collision Detection: Helicopter-sized Sky Tank, bit more black in some areas if possible. A flying "dark" Antigrav might also work and thinking about it, preferable...
Armor: 5
Movement Speed: 370
Target Classifications: Normal, Aerial, Hero
Other Effects: Passively acts as an invisibility detector at a radius of 750.
________________________________________________
Hellfire Missiles
The Hydra fires missile(s) at the designated target. The effects change depending on the specialization you choose, which are detailed below...
Bomberman: Deals 600/1,200/1,800/2,400/3,000 damage in a 300 AoE (Pretty much Frost Robot's Blizzard terms here)
Projectile Mechanics: Instant (Like Ice Prison instant, no travel time once you get in range for use.)
Cooldown: 40 seconds
Range: 1,100
Energy Cost: 1.5X The Norm
Animation: Wisp Detonate
Other Effects: Buildings take 25% damage. If possible, make it so you can only initiate this attack at a range of 2,000 or above so ground can see it coming, as it is pretty deadly even considering the weak hull the HK has. It doesn't have that speed for nothing...
Comments: It may seem a bit heavy, but a smart opponent may see it coming to avoid the suspected AoE. Or just might have a big tank.
Sharpshooter: Deals 400/800/1,200/1,600/2,000 damage to the selected aerial unit upon impact.
Projectile Mechanics: Instant (Upon Impact, takes time to reach like Heavy Tank's missile)
Cooldown: 40 seconds
Range: 2,000
Energy Cost: 1.5X The Norm
Other Effects: If the target has 80%-100% of their maximum hit points upon impact, this damage is doubled. Otherwise, it is "locked down" for 2 seconds as per the Antigrav ultimate, minus invulnerability.
Animation: 2X Heavy Tank Missile (Or one if that's not possible...)
Comments: A different approach to killing something. Though it is considerably risky as you might waste your nuke shooting for double damage. And if all your opponents decide to go ground it would be nearly a total waste... In which case I'd say maybe it should do normal damage against everything else with no additional effects.
Destroyer: Deals 800/1,600/2,400/3,200/4,000 damage to the selected building two seconds after impact.
Projectile Mechanics: Takes time to reach target as per the Heavy Tank's Missile, two seconds after impact damage is incurred.
Cooldown: 40 seconds
Range: 500
Energy Cost: 1.5X The Norm
Other Effects: 50% splash to non-buildings in a 400 radius around the point of detonation. This includes aerial units.
Animation: Mortar Team Projectile, Lava Tank's Ultimate for Explosion Effect
Comments: Yes the damage is quite deadly in an AoE, but with a LOT of time to move out of the way (Or just simply staying away from buildings...) this will mostly only affect buildings or ground tanks just camping at their factories or something.
One last thought: Would be interesting if you could change the missile types at base for a fee of say... 500g. Would remove the need for aerial missiles to hit non-aerial units without switching tanks...
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Combat Mobility
The Hydra gains +30/+60/+90/+120/+150 movement speed and 10%/15%/20%/25%/30% magic resistance, and 15%/30%/45%/60%/75% evasion. (The evasion I'd think only takes effect against actual attacks... Otherwise, just give it like +10 armor per level.)
Duration: 6 seconds
Cooldown: 24 seconds (counting duration)
Energy Cost: 18/26/34/42/50
The Hydra passively has more speed than normal, this is one of the reasons. (One of the other reasons being it has just above half the hit points of a Sky Tank)
Animation: Something like the Antigrav's thrusters with more trailing would work... Maybe apply slight fade to the Hydra.
________________________________________________
Basic Cannon
Passively fires at an enemy unit within a range of 900, dealing 60/120/180/240/300 damage per second.
-"The cannon all tanks have access to but few grab. Underestimate it not, for this thing hits as hard as Improved Swarm Rockets when maxed, -100 range. 'Nuff said."
Hm, at this point it's kinda hard to think of two more abilities considering pretty much every idea was taken by all the possibilities already suggested... But given the speedy/attack nature of this tank...
________________________________________________
Basic Cannon #2!
Passively fires at an enemy unit within a range of 900, dealing 60/120/180/240/300 damage per second.
-"The cannon all tanks have access to buy few grab. Underestimate it not, for this thing hits as hard as Improved Swarm Rockets when maxed, -100 range but now twice the fun!"
________________________________________________
Lockdown (Ultimate)
This ability disables all buffs/passive abilities (such as the Heavy Tank's Plating, Helicopter Speed, and so on.) and slows movement speed by 30% for 8 seconds. Also burns up all of the target's energy, causing 4X/6X/8X/10X/12X the mana lost in damage.
Another idea might be the aforementioned effects besides mana burn damage, and instead incurring damage based on how much the target *doesn't* have... Something to the effect of 5/7.5/10/12.5/15 damage per point in energy the target is missing. This ability does keep with the "smart" play encouraged by having a more fragile tank, but is also rendered much less useful against someone "smart" enough to not use their mana unless they know they'll win.
Or yet another idea would be sort of a combination of the two... Disables passive abilities/buffs and slows movement speed by 30% for 8 seconds, dealing a solid 300/600/900/1,200/1,500 damage in addition to 2.5/3.75/5.0/6.25/7.5 damage for every energy point missing from the target tank.
Range: 300-500 (Think of the Sky Tank's Energy Bomb or Helicopter's... Bomb.)
Duration: 8 seconds (For the disabled tank abilities and slow effect)
Cooldown: 60 seconds
Energy Cost: The Norm for an Ultimate
Animation: Mana Burn for projectile effect, Spell Shield for debuff. Or maybe that Lightning Wand...
Other Effects: Already covered above, as was duration, but eh...
________________________________________________
Final Comments: Yes, it packs a punch offensively, but even with Combat Mobility active (Which doesn't last long...) it's still considerably less durable than you would expect from an 8,000g tank. With this tank, I focused more on the main reason (At least I think) why we have aerial tanks. Mobility, hit-and-run-ability, speed, cunning (The ultimate exemplifies this)... Just an overall advantage in offense at the expensive of defense.
I'd dive into why I consider the Airship/Sky Tank to be weak, but this isn't the thread...
Quote:Just look at his abilities with soberly: for only $25000 he will have 27000+400*25=37000hp!
Terminal Velocity makes him nearly invulnerable and extremely fast so forget about your thoughts to kill him.
Two 2000-range abilities that can damage buildings would just finish the game in no time giving defending player no chance. The only thing they can make against is to defend their base in about 2000 range outside it.
Firstly, many abilities as a standalone could be considered overpowered. But it's about how the tank turns out as a package, and it just so happens the Behemoth doesn't have much in the way of combat abilities.
Secondly, it's the HP scaling you should expect. Infernal-Robot gains like +300 HP per level I believe, so +400 HP per level is being LENIENT if anything. The greater base hit points is similar to what was done with the Heavy Tank, loss of speed for greater durability, though TV does have a synergistic effect (when active...)
Third, a temporary 35% magic resistance is NOT invulnerability. Though thinking about it, with batteries opening the possibility of like a 300 energy capacity the drain should perhaps be increased to 10 a second when maxed and the other levels adjusted accordingly... Either way, think of it as two free Gold Hulls and a free speed booster on a normally faster tank when active, and *nothing* when not active. And consider the price tag afterward, since the Basic Cannon is like a free upgraded Swarm Rockets at L13, minus 100 range.
I can see the Behemoth very tough to stop in terms of base harassment, but in my perspective it's like a Heavy Tank to Light Tanks. What do you expect? When I nab a Frost Robot it's about the same thing, just they're sometimes capable of turning the game into a stalemate by playing 100% defense. That's one of the reasons for this tank. If you couldn't manage enough gold to remain a valuable player on the field while the other guy was slowly accumulating it for a Behemoth, you were probably getting smashed anyway.
In terms of fighting it up front, yes it's tough there too. Again, if you couldn't manage a Frost Robot with an extra 12K-18K gold to spend on other things, you had it coming in the form of weapons or even better, a tank.
To narrow it down even further, you might say the Behemoth doesn't have much in the way of combat ability. Yes, it has TONS of hit points and TV to smash a weaker opponent with. What it doesn't have? Abilities that can be used in the thick of combat on a whim. Devastate isn't a targetted ability, so against a fast (or just aerial) tank it can miss, though against tight groups or someone that isn't paying attention it may have a decent effect. Ultimatum is just premeditated ability all the way unless you're lucky enough to hit someone with it when he's reaching for a sip of water or something. As for Terminal Velocity, you can't have it on all the time. Coupled with the fact its other "imba" abilities cost energy, and you may find yet those hit points are dead weight as you're just kinda there while your opponents chip away at you. That is how the Helicopter beats the Airship, that is how Ali beat Frazier.
Quick simplification:
Terminal Velocity - Combat Ability (NOT to be confused with Passive as it does cost mana. Yes, as a standalone ability it screams imbalance, but you have to consider the overall package of what makes a tank imba or not. Same consideration is why we don't have a tank with four 2,000 range nukes or something.)
Armor Plating/Whatever Cheesy Name I Gave It - Passive and somewhat effective for tanking Troop Command, though interestingly enough that item STILL gives you trouble if you didn't have Devastate on the ready.
Devastate - Premeditated Ability, you must have a good idea of where your target(s) are going to wind up or you'll waste it and give your opponent an opening with superior weaponry.
Ultimatum - Premeditated Ability
Basic Cannon - Needs no introduction.
Quote:In fact, that would be great, but for now this tank would be only one that is capable to turn the game flow radically, and all other tanks could not do this. And not only tank, nothing that costs 25000 can ever change game flow in such way as THIS tank can!
This I feel is the most ignorant statement in your post. I mean, it's not like a Photon Bombs can change the way the game is going like a Frost Robot or Infernal Robot can either. That's because tanks overall have the better package, and when I suggested the Behemoth concept I kept in mind how all the tanks seem to scale and as such I'd say the only balance issue with the Behemoth is perhaps TV is too cheap with batteries, that's about it.
Quote:So, this is an imba.
BUT! If add some balance it could be a great new unit.
DAMN! Battle Tanks NEED new tanks! Heelllloooo, developers!:)
btw, all tanks that TKF have purposed here I think are just great! I'd like to see them all in new version. But you need to think 7 times about the balance, of course...
Good luck!
[Addition::Edit]
I don't remember but it seems nobody suggested the use of Mirror/Hallucination ability for tank like Blademaster in original WC has.
Yes I believe if balanced it would be a great tank to have in the game. Perhaps even implement some of its concepts into a lower-tier tank, though the Demolisher has one of them on a much much tougher scale... But I feel I should remind you that even if your tank is geared up, 25,000 gold isn't easy to save up, especially if your opponents are giving you trouble as well.
Oh so many times I've held out with a Helicopter with an upgrade Iron Hull and 5X Light Plasma Guns until Frost-Robot to begin taking apart my opponents... A tank with this pricetag I don't think I could hold out long enough, especially if it weren't placed inside my own base...
Okay great, you made me want to think of more ideas.
________________________________________________
General Tank Specifications:
Tank Name: Hydra
Cost: 8,000g
Hitpoints: 5,000 + 120 per level
Size/Collision Detection: Helicopter-sized Sky Tank, bit more black in some areas if possible. A flying "dark" Antigrav might also work and thinking about it, preferable...
Armor: 5
Movement Speed: 370
Target Classifications: Normal, Aerial, Hero
Other Effects: Passively acts as an invisibility detector at a radius of 750.
________________________________________________
Hellfire Missiles
The Hydra fires missile(s) at the designated target. The effects change depending on the specialization you choose, which are detailed below...
Bomberman: Deals 600/1,200/1,800/2,400/3,000 damage in a 300 AoE (Pretty much Frost Robot's Blizzard terms here)
Projectile Mechanics: Instant (Like Ice Prison instant, no travel time once you get in range for use.)
Cooldown: 40 seconds
Range: 1,100
Energy Cost: 1.5X The Norm
Animation: Wisp Detonate
Other Effects: Buildings take 25% damage. If possible, make it so you can only initiate this attack at a range of 2,000 or above so ground can see it coming, as it is pretty deadly even considering the weak hull the HK has. It doesn't have that speed for nothing...
Comments: It may seem a bit heavy, but a smart opponent may see it coming to avoid the suspected AoE. Or just might have a big tank.
Sharpshooter: Deals 400/800/1,200/1,600/2,000 damage to the selected aerial unit upon impact.
Projectile Mechanics: Instant (Upon Impact, takes time to reach like Heavy Tank's missile)
Cooldown: 40 seconds
Range: 2,000
Energy Cost: 1.5X The Norm
Other Effects: If the target has 80%-100% of their maximum hit points upon impact, this damage is doubled. Otherwise, it is "locked down" for 2 seconds as per the Antigrav ultimate, minus invulnerability.
Animation: 2X Heavy Tank Missile (Or one if that's not possible...)
Comments: A different approach to killing something. Though it is considerably risky as you might waste your nuke shooting for double damage. And if all your opponents decide to go ground it would be nearly a total waste... In which case I'd say maybe it should do normal damage against everything else with no additional effects.
Destroyer: Deals 800/1,600/2,400/3,200/4,000 damage to the selected building two seconds after impact.
Projectile Mechanics: Takes time to reach target as per the Heavy Tank's Missile, two seconds after impact damage is incurred.
Cooldown: 40 seconds
Range: 500
Energy Cost: 1.5X The Norm
Other Effects: 50% splash to non-buildings in a 400 radius around the point of detonation. This includes aerial units.
Animation: Mortar Team Projectile, Lava Tank's Ultimate for Explosion Effect
Comments: Yes the damage is quite deadly in an AoE, but with a LOT of time to move out of the way (Or just simply staying away from buildings...) this will mostly only affect buildings or ground tanks just camping at their factories or something.
One last thought: Would be interesting if you could change the missile types at base for a fee of say... 500g. Would remove the need for aerial missiles to hit non-aerial units without switching tanks...
________________________________________________
Combat Mobility
The Hydra gains +30/+60/+90/+120/+150 movement speed and 10%/15%/20%/25%/30% magic resistance, and 15%/30%/45%/60%/75% evasion. (The evasion I'd think only takes effect against actual attacks... Otherwise, just give it like +10 armor per level.)
Duration: 6 seconds
Cooldown: 24 seconds (counting duration)
Energy Cost: 18/26/34/42/50
The Hydra passively has more speed than normal, this is one of the reasons. (One of the other reasons being it has just above half the hit points of a Sky Tank)
Animation: Something like the Antigrav's thrusters with more trailing would work... Maybe apply slight fade to the Hydra.
________________________________________________
Basic Cannon
Passively fires at an enemy unit within a range of 900, dealing 60/120/180/240/300 damage per second.
-"The cannon all tanks have access to but few grab. Underestimate it not, for this thing hits as hard as Improved Swarm Rockets when maxed, -100 range. 'Nuff said."
Hm, at this point it's kinda hard to think of two more abilities considering pretty much every idea was taken by all the possibilities already suggested... But given the speedy/attack nature of this tank...
________________________________________________
Basic Cannon #2!
Passively fires at an enemy unit within a range of 900, dealing 60/120/180/240/300 damage per second.
-"The cannon all tanks have access to buy few grab. Underestimate it not, for this thing hits as hard as Improved Swarm Rockets when maxed, -100 range but now twice the fun!"
________________________________________________
Lockdown (Ultimate)
This ability disables all buffs/passive abilities (such as the Heavy Tank's Plating, Helicopter Speed, and so on.) and slows movement speed by 30% for 8 seconds. Also burns up all of the target's energy, causing 4X/6X/8X/10X/12X the mana lost in damage.
Another idea might be the aforementioned effects besides mana burn damage, and instead incurring damage based on how much the target *doesn't* have... Something to the effect of 5/7.5/10/12.5/15 damage per point in energy the target is missing. This ability does keep with the "smart" play encouraged by having a more fragile tank, but is also rendered much less useful against someone "smart" enough to not use their mana unless they know they'll win.
Or yet another idea would be sort of a combination of the two... Disables passive abilities/buffs and slows movement speed by 30% for 8 seconds, dealing a solid 300/600/900/1,200/1,500 damage in addition to 2.5/3.75/5.0/6.25/7.5 damage for every energy point missing from the target tank.
Range: 300-500 (Think of the Sky Tank's Energy Bomb or Helicopter's... Bomb.)
Duration: 8 seconds (For the disabled tank abilities and slow effect)
Cooldown: 60 seconds
Energy Cost: The Norm for an Ultimate
Animation: Mana Burn for projectile effect, Spell Shield for debuff. Or maybe that Lightning Wand...
Other Effects: Already covered above, as was duration, but eh...
________________________________________________
Final Comments: Yes, it packs a punch offensively, but even with Combat Mobility active (Which doesn't last long...) it's still considerably less durable than you would expect from an 8,000g tank. With this tank, I focused more on the main reason (At least I think) why we have aerial tanks. Mobility, hit-and-run-ability, speed, cunning (The ultimate exemplifies this)... Just an overall advantage in offense at the expensive of defense.
I'd dive into why I consider the Airship/Sky Tank to be weak, but this isn't the thread...
I found quite a neat air tank model, but looks to similar to the sky tank
or for better uses. Maybe not very popular ability to use.
hock: 