Demon Tank Stun Over Powered?

[Damanos]

I've been wondering for some time which tank is better, the Demon Tank or the Demon Sky Tank. I've come to the sad realization that the demon tank is far better then the demon sky tank. I ask you fellow btankers, is the Demon Tank's Stun far to powerful, is three seconds far too long when they have wpns that do 4000 dmg in 3 secs on top of abilitys? I vote that in the new version all stuns in the game last the same amount on EVERY tank. This includes the Antigrav. If we make more balance changes such as these, maybe there will be less of a one sided game where the main strategy is to get a demon tank and poison magic with tele as those are short ranged wpns that can easily be used on Control points. With this in mind, how can anyone win 1v1? A sky tank or any other tank for that matter can't even use their spells before the stun wears off on the demon tank, so I ask you, how can someone with ranged wpns win against a person who uses really cheap, really overpowered wpns on a tank that doesn't allow you to move for 3 seconds. Please post what you think and if we should change the stun on the demon tank, as well as all tanks, to balance and improve gameplay.

[DerSatan]

the demon tank stun is really good, but its his only really good ability. the reason why the demon tank dominates the battlefield is that he is the last (best) tank which doesnt have armor requirements.

if all non-starting tanks had these requirements (or no tank in theory), i think he would be much less present, as it was in versions before armor requirements for tanks were added.

[TKF]

Well, it is better that frost robots ice prison in every ways, except for slowing effect.

Often, the stun duration is annoyingly long. Most cases when I'm struck by it and is to close to the enemy, It's a deadly stun duration.

Demon tanks 3 second stun is very long. What if it stuns for 2.5 sec, or what about an incremental stun increase of all abilities with only standard value?

____

Normal tank and heli rocket 0.25s pr level
Bombardment 0.3s pr level
Artillery 0.3s pr level
Shredder 0.4 or 0.5s pr level
Thunder tanks stun 0.3 or 0.4s pr level
Demon tank 0.6s pr level
Ice prison 0.5s pr level
Chaos Teleport 0.5 s stun pr level

The values here is just an example suggestion.

[Carcharoth2]

I have the same oppinion.

In the late midgame nearly everybody who is good buys demon tank. In pro games you often have 9-10 demon tanks.
They all play similar, short ranged weapons and stun or teleport to beat the enemy.
Of course skillfull playing is still important, but its not that funny to see everybody play the same strategie.

Some suggestions:

a)
Nerfe the short range weapons a bit. The formula to calculate the damage should maybe a bit different or have a extra parameter for them, so they cost more. This would be nice, so you will see some more other strategies.
Another think i saw Antigravs with 2-3 hulls more than 10 K Hitpoints and short ranged weapons. They could even beat better playing guys, because of similar strat. Short range weapons, Ulitmate and EMP stun (2 stun) and the fly abiltiy(instead of tele)
Short range becomes to strong in late games

b)
Maybe the stun of the demon is a bit strong, i dont know if the demon would be still to strong (everybody buys) if the short range weapons are nerfed. The skytank is too weak in comparison with a deamon.
If you dont change the weapons (too much work for the mappers?), than pls nerf the demon a bit, only a bit not that much.

c)
In Dota the teleport in form of dagger is not that powerfull like the tele in Btanks (i know you cant compare 1:1) so maybe the teleport must be nerfed. But not everbody buys tele. Stun and speed can do the same job. So first nerve the other thinks.

Pls think about this really everybody plays demon tank with short range.

[Vomitus]

Normal tank and heli rocket 0.25s pr level
Bombardment 0.3s pr level
Artillery 0.3s pr level
Shredder 0.4 or 0.5s pr level
Thunder tanks stun 0.3 or 0.4s pr level
Demon tank 0.6s pr level
Ice prison 0.5s pr level
Chaos Teleport 0.5 s stun pr level

The values here is just an example suggestion.

This will make stun particulary useless for low cost tanks(because they will have only 20%-50% of their initial duration). And it will make no change to mid/hi cost tanks - when you buy such tank you already can put at least 4 or even 5 point into skill.

I am against such change - I just see no sense in it.

Another thing that frost robot now is extremely rare. I usually play BT 1-2 times a day. And from that day when armor requirements where introduced in game I saw Frost Robot only one time in game - when I bought it myself.

[RedNova]

Teleport breakers are useful in those situations. We once had a teleport-happy close range goblin tank with very superior weapons (close range of course). When we put some telebreakers near our warp spots, he suddently became a lot less effective. Still deadly, but not the teleport-then-use-all-skills-equal-3-kills kind.

Close range weapons do become more useful when HP is plentiful, but I don't think this can be fixed unless we break the cost formula the mapmakers use. And that wont happen anytime soon unless there is a major redesign done.

[Exodus]

Well, I'm aware of this problem. Short range weapon are of course very strong and they are more useful later in the game, for two reasons: you have more HP and thatswhy play more risky and then there is the teleporter.

Without the teleporter most of the tanks would have problems getting close enough to their opponents, so I'm not sure if this is the fault of the weapon formula or this particular item.

I think everyone knows that the teleporter is very strong, maybe even too strong, since nearly everyone gets it in the end. But if we should change anything, what would it be? Less range? More mana costs? Higher cooldown? Casting time? I'm not sure.

And of course, its also possible to change the weapon formula again, but you know, its quite some work to change over 100 weapons :/

[Althend]

I think that's the teleport is really too strong. The range is really high and the cost is low. (3000 gold is nothing)
Maybe make the range at 1800, and create another teleport at 3000 with higher price (5000?)

[fido1]

maybe there will be less of a one sided game where the main strategy is to get a demon tank and poison magic with tele as those are short ranged wpns that can easily be used on Control points. With this in mind, how can anyone win 1v1? A sky tank or any other tank for that matter can't even use their spells before the stun wears off on the demon tank, so I ask you, how can someone with ranged wpns win against a person who uses really cheap, really overpowered wpns on a tank that doesn't allow you to move for 3 seconds.

If you are talking about a purely 1v1 game, look me up & i'll show you how to counter. If you are talking about team game of 4v4 or 5v5, then ask yourself why do you get caught in a 1v1 situation mid/late game instead of travelling in groups. We have already discuss about all the counters for teleport in previous thread, so i dont think i need repeat them.

the demon tank stun is really good, but its his only really good ability. the reason why the demon tank dominates the battlefield is that he is the last (best) tank which doesnt have armor requirements.

Fully Agree

[Prog]

Nerfing the teleporter would make the Antigrav too strong (as the antigrav might be allready, i'm not sure yet), becouse it would buff the jump indirectly.

[Vomitus]

Nerfing the teleporter would make the Antigrav too strong (as the antigrav might be allready, i'm not sure yet), becouse it would buff the jump indirectly.

Until casting time/cast delay is used on a teleporter Antigrav's Jump won't be much buffed because Jumps delay and casting time are it's main disadvantages.

[Carcharoth2]

Teleport nerfing:

I think change range to 2200, so you can still jump away from demon tank shoots, but not jump over the whole map
I think this change isn´t that huge, must be tested. Speed becomes stronger indirectly, so i hope strategies become a bit different. Long range players can harrass players wich have short range and portal away a bit better.
If this is not enough nerve maybe the range has to become 2000 or even 1800, but this would be a huge nerfe.

Changing gold cost, mana cost would only make the tele more expensive but wouldnt change the gamestyle.
Longer cooldown means less aktion, you wait for your tele a bit longer.

Like Indetermisnimus/ Prog^^ mentioned Antigrav is maybe imba, and becomes stronger with this nerfe. I dont know how strong the antigrav is in late game, because i never saw a really strong player playing this strategie (double stun and flying and short range with much HP)
At least the Ulti must be changed, it is not good, when all spells in a game make fixed damage and Antigravs ultimate makes percentual damage. Make fix damage for him, not too much, the most important think is the stun effect. Now you can test if Antivgrav is still too strong with the nerfe.

[horselance]

If we return to title: Demon Tank stun, it is powerful yes, but Demon tank has only 2 good abilties. But 2 good abilities are too good when stack. Goblin Tanks' Stun is only vs Ground and 2 seconds. And it can also have 2 abilities to use (only 1 vs Air!). Heavy Tank Has 0.5 sec Stun. And it has 2 abilities to use too.

I don't accept complains about "Demon Tank Has only 1 usefull abilty so it must be strong". Most Tank Has 2 usefull abilities including Demon Tank. But Demons' Abilty is much better comparing to others... Only Imba Tank is Infernal which has 3 powerful abilities vs air and ground both.

Demon stun can be nerfed as it has good damage and good range and good stun. One must be lowered, probably stun.

We can Discuss TP+Melee Weapons in other Topic.
http://btanks.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1158

[Vomitus]

Teleport nerfing:

I think change range to 2200, so you can still jump away from demon tank shoots, but not jump over the whole map
I think this change isn´t that huge, must be tested. Speed becomes stronger indirectly, so i hope strategies become a bit different. Long range players can harrass players wich have short range and portal away a bit better.
If this is not enough nerve maybe the range has to become 2000 or even 1800, but this would be a huge nerfe.

I think 2200 will be fine. It will still allow to escape the danger but not so clearly as it is now. An enemy will have a chance to run you down and kill.
Also bomber will be a bit nerfed - he will have only one long range teleport(skill).

Note: I don't think that teleport skill distance must be nerfed also. It should remain in tact.

Changing gold cost, mana cost would only make the tele more expensive but wouldnt change the gamestyle.
Longer cooldown means less aktion, you wait for your tele a bit longer.

Real nerf would be make cooldown as twice as it is now. In one side tele will be much less useful, but in the other side - I even do not know how exactly will such change influence the gameplay.

Like Indetermisnimus/ Prog^^ mentioned Antigrav is maybe imba, and becomes stronger with this nerfe. I dont know how strong the antigrav is in late game, because i never saw a really strong player playing this strategie (double stun and flying and short range with much HP)
At least the Ulti must be changed, it is not good, when all spells in a game make fixed damage and Antigravs ultimate makes percentual damage. Make fix damage for him, not too much, the most important think is the stun effect. Now you can test if Antivgrav is still too strong with the nerfe.

No, I think Antigrav should remain as it is. Yes, his Ult is a bit too powerfull, but Antigrav's low hp do not allow him to be effective in late and particularly in mid-game. His other damage skill are weak and mass stun projectiles fly too slow so you always have time to retreat in a period between ult wears off and mass stun reaches you(if you have teleport). Because you can simply very rapidly hit KP_1 -> LMB(activate teleport in specified direction) and you will jump out even from huge couple of enemies near. And assuming that while ulted you are invincible - I don't see problem here.
Generally , I've never seen good team game with Grav participation. Once I tried myself and I was owning my enemy for long(because I was overfeeded) until they got Infernals. Grav with hulls and short range do not match inf in similar price. And hardly demon tank.

[Zirze]

There are 4 possible problems with the demon tank (4 abilities):
1. Banish. (Slows and makes the tank take more magic damage for a period of time) I have never seen this ability dominate a game or even come close to being very important. It has caused me to be killed a couple times but that's it.
2. Lava servant: It's nice to pop out extra cannon fodder and pick up a few creeps, but this cannot dominate a game, it's not possible against incompetent players.
3. Hellfire: A nice ability to clear a few creeps while dropping a lot of damage on an opponent. But it's has a fairly limited range and 90% of the time is possible because of:
4. LAVA SHOT!!!The only problem with the demon tank is lava shot. It deals 1750 damage, has 2000 range, and stuns for 3 seconds. This is the best ability in the game because it can stop things like infernal's rain of fire, Frost robots, rain of ice, sky fortresses system overload, with 2 of them can keep the titan stunned long enough to not cast keep on fighting. And theseare all tanks that are stronger than it is. To a tank with less health and less stun, it will dominate those also. A couple demon tanks, or a whole team of them can easily dominate the game, or be the only important force in the game (Granted a team of infernals will destroy your base as you might kill them) because of this one ability.

In that last paragraph I may have overstated how good demon tanks are for the entire game, but they are the best, by far, transition to infernal/sky fortress/frost robot?/Titan. And this is because of lava shot. Even with allies around or creeps around, lava shot is scary because of the 3 second stun. It's almost expected to have multiple enemies teleport in, or just charge in and use their short range weapons and hellfire to finish you off (easily in the 3 seconds, or 6 if another one adds its stun).

Also, if you compare Demon tank to other tanks in the same cost area (+-25%), you get 2 tanks, Earth Robot, and Sky tank. Sky tank: no stun, no disable, nothing that it can do to stop the stun and hellfire from going off, and having 2-3 seconds of attacks on it before it can get off it's abilities(which are all time based ironically). Earth Robot: While I don't have much experience with this tank, if you cannot get off your granite defense off before the stun happens, you have no chance unless you can get dustwave off quickly. As for earthquake that's going to be worthless if they have one person just wait until you cast it to stun you. With these comparisons, the demon tank will easily outmatch the 2 tanks that cost near the same price. There are some ways to stop demon tanks with lesser tanks. A high level shredder and a goblin tank, or 2 shredders can stun until it's dead, but with the help of 1 other person these tanks will not have the health or abilities to compete with hellfire and lava shot. A heavy tank will stun for 1 second at max level and a demon tank will stun for 3 seconds at first level, that's an obvious winner. Besides those I don't see any other comparisons.

In all of these matchups the demon tank wins because of the 3 second stun and not because of the 1750 damage, and not because of the 2000 range. Both of these help a lot but they are not the most important factor. Maybe keeping the 3 second stun is what is needed for this tank to keep it distinct and to keep the highest no armor vehicle at the top of that part. One proposition, ignoring what I just said is to lower the stun to 2 seconds, and leave everything else the same. My propositon is to lower the damage to 200 per level and lower the range by 500. Well this ability is excellent to start a combat, it is ridicilous when you kill someone you keep pushing, they come back control point teleport, and shoot you while you're trying to make it back to base. I don't think an ability that has 1500 range, stuns for 3 seconds, and deals 1000 damage is unreasonable for a 10k tank. Another problem with the 1750 damage is when teams all aim for one factory and shoot it. There literally is no defense. Even if you've had your laser towers survive for the last 30 minutes, you can't stop this, and by lowering damage and range it would make this strategy less effective too.

The final part about the stun is that it is what allows demon tank to be a good transition from non-armor based tanks, to armor required tanks. If you have a sky tank, or earth robot, or even goblin tank, and a sky fortress starts floating around, you're going to be worthless vs. it. But if you're demon tank then your stun is going to give you a good chance to still be useful in the fight even against superior tanks. but anything less is not going to be helpful and is going to start to feed.

[Frechheit]

There are 4 possible problems with the demon tank (4 abilities):
1. Banish. (Slows and makes the tank take more magic damage for a period of time) I have never seen this ability dominate a game or even come close to being very important. It has caused me to be killed a couple times but that's it.
2. Lava servant: It's nice to pop out extra cannon fodder and pick up a few creeps, but this cannot dominate a game, it's not possible against incompetent players.
3. Hellfire: A nice ability to clear a few creeps while dropping a lot of damage on an opponent. But it's has a fairly limited range and 90% of the time is possible because of:
4. LAVA SHOT!!!The only problem with the demon tank is lava shot. It deals 1750 damage, has 2000 range, and stuns for 3 seconds. This is the best ability in the game because it can stop things like infernal's rain of fire, Frost robots, rain of ice, sky fortresses system overload, with 2 of them can keep the titan stunned long enough to not cast keep on fighting. And theseare all tanks that are stronger than it is. To a tank with less health and less stun, it will dominate those also. A couple demon tanks, or a whole team of them can easily dominate the game, or be the only important force in the game (Granted a team of infernals will destroy your base as you might kill them) because of this one ability.

In that last paragraph I may have overstated how good demon tanks are for the entire game, but they are the best, by far, transition to infernal/sky fortress/frost robot?/Titan. And this is because of lava shot. Even with allies around or creeps around, lava shot is scary because of the 3 second stun. It's almost expected to have multiple enemies teleport in, or just charge in and use their short range weapons and hellfire to finish you off (easily in the 3 seconds, or 6 if another one adds its stun).

Also, if you compare Demon tank to other tanks in the same cost area (+-25%), you get 2 tanks, Earth Robot, and Sky tank. Sky tank: no stun, no disable, nothing that it can do to stop the stun and hellfire from going off, and having 2-3 seconds of attacks on it before it can get off it's abilities(which are all time based ironically). Earth Robot: While I don't have much experience with this tank, if you cannot get off your granite defense off before the stun happens, you have no chance unless you can get dustwave off quickly. As for earthquake that's going to be worthless if they have one person just wait until you cast it to stun you. With these comparisons, the demon tank will easily outmatch the 2 tanks that cost near the same price. There are some ways to stop demon tanks with lesser tanks. A high level shredder and a goblin tank, or 2 shredders can stun until it's dead, but with the help of 1 other person these tanks will not have the health or abilities to compete with hellfire and lava shot. A heavy tank will stun for 1 second at max level and a demon tank will stun for 3 seconds at first level, that's an obvious winner. Besides those I don't see any other comparisons.

In all of these matchups the demon tank wins because of the 3 second stun and not because of the 1750 damage, and not because of the 2000 range. Both of these help a lot but they are not the most important factor. Maybe keeping the 3 second stun is what is needed for this tank to keep it distinct and to keep the highest no armor vehicle at the top of that part. One proposition, ignoring what I just said is to lower the stun to 2 seconds, and leave everything else the same. My propositon is to lower the damage to 200 per level and lower the range by 500. Well this ability is excellent to start a combat, it is ridicilous when you kill someone you keep pushing, they come back control point teleport, and shoot you while you're trying to make it back to base. I don't think an ability that has 1500 range, stuns for 3 seconds, and deals 1000 damage is unreasonable for a 10k tank. Another problem with the 1750 damage is when teams all aim for one factory and shoot it. There literally is no defense. Even if you've had your laser towers survive for the last 30 minutes, you can't stop this, and by lowering damage and range it would make this strategy less effective too.

The final part about the stun is that it is what allows demon tank to be a good transition from non-armor based tanks, to armor required tanks. If you have a sky tank, or earth robot, or even goblin tank, and a sky fortress starts floating around, you're going to be worthless vs. it. But if you're demon tank then your stun is going to give you a good chance to still be useful in the fight even against superior tanks. but anything less is not going to be helpful and is going to start to feed.

Hi Zirze,

Here i comment your 4 Problems of Demon Tanks.

For me Banish is a nice Skill but in the Game often not useful. Cause in most of Cases the mana is only enough for Stun,Hellfire and Teleporter for example.

I am playin Demon tanks i think more than thousand times but i never recognize really the use of Lava Servant. I mean its pretty rare when he comes or not.

Its right that the Stun of Demon is a strong skill but there a unlimited counter against it.

Teleporter,Turbo or u r yourself a Demon,Antigrav and so on.

Against Air for example stuns are not so effective cause u cant follow air after the 2-3 sec stun of demon.

And to compare Demon with Infernal,Sky Fort or Titan is hilarious.

Moreover its just logic that Demon is stronger than Earth or Sky tank look at the Price.

Frost and Inf are stronger than demons.

Sky and earth tank are stronger than thunder or heavy. oO

For your Statement that only demon is useful at the end against superior tanks.

U know antigrav? The ultimate? just a example

Greetz Frech

[kittyonmyfoot]

I am AGAINST changing the teleporter to nerf the demon tank. Just the concept of nerfing a general use item to nerf 1 tank is perposterous to me. If you do that you'll nerf trading as well as a lot of other tanks.

Other than that the counters are easy... people seem to be dancing around them so I'll let them tell you... although... imho... the good people already know and the bad people will never learn ;p