Saving for tank is best strat, needs change!!!

[Haxz]

Linearized Tank Growth

Upgrading the tank you are using is the only strategy in this game. Every other strategy is futile. That is why I am writing this post. I am not saying NEVER buy guns, but I am saying, rushing a tank is the best way to play in EVERY situation obviously getting 1 gun and possibly 2.

Example…~~10000 gold….light tank + 3 fire ball cannon (2 upgraded) VERSUS heavy tank + 1 swarm rocket upgrade….both worth 10000 roughly….winner without knowing anything is…heavy tank because he can instantly kill the light tank and also can farm as well due to having better abilities

This example is true for almost any situation given a better tank versus a smaller tank with more guns. There needs to be some sort of reasoning for spending gold on guns. Currently the ONLY reason to buy guns is the fact that something like an infernal tank requires armor upgrade 15. Currently one of the best strategies available is to rush a Demon Tank because it is fricking rediculous and requires no armor upgrades.

There needs to be some reason to get guns early game, Sure 1 or 2 low level guns is necessary to farm creeps, but past that you should never buy guns. I'm not sure how to tackle this problem except make abilties % based instead of HP based or change the basis of how abilities work. For instance, if the rocket attack abilties that most tanks have were % based instead of damage based...buying guns early would obviously be a viable situation.

My Suggestions (this has not been investigated thuroughly, but does contain SOME thought lol)

I would first like to say this is a very rough idea, and is just meant to maybe give the game editors some ideas on how to tackle this problem. Please do not take these ideas to heart, but comment and criticize.

1) % based attacks

Light tank Missle Attack
L1 -- Does 2% of max hp of target
L2 -- Does 4% of max hp of target
L3 -- Does 6% of max hp of target
L4 -- Does 8% of max hp of target
L5 - Does 10% of max hp of target

Heavy Tank Missle attack
L1 -- Does 4% of max hp of target
L2 -- Does 8% of max hp of target
L3 -- Does 12% of max hp of target
L4 -- Does 16% of max hp of target
L5 - Does 20% of max hp of target

In this case, there is a reason to upgrade to a new tank obviously because your abilities are stronger, but having the better tank does not mean an automatic win. This would place emphasis on buying guns because they are a solution.

2) Change the basic structure of abilities

Instead of everyone having something like 900 dmg + 0.5 second stun (which causes tank upgrades to be necessary because you HAVE to have enough HP to survive this attack), change things to like just a stun, or a 5 second snare to lower movement speed. Every tank having the direct damage ability makes the game very linear, and follow the same path. Not only is this boring, but makes the game have less strategy involvement in your build. There needs to be reason for buying tanks, not just get the best one you can afford. Currently the guard is one of the few tanks that has specific abilities that aren't just about doing damage. Maybe have tanks with more protective abilities like magnetic armor, or more utility stuff like protect from damage abilities (shell).

There just needs to be other motives for buying things other than to have abilities that kill because guns become more useless the more abilites there are like this.



Death Penalties

Part of the reason tank solutions are so viable is there is no death penalty. If someone is actively spending money on buying weapons and has a light tank, there is no pressure on his opponent to buy equipment to combat him. The person saving money knows well that low level kills mean less than high level kills, and he has no large penalty for dying so why not hold out for a huge tank and get those higher level kills? Maybe if he had a fear of death, he would equip himself properly to fight that opponent and not just rush a demon or a heavy tank. Possibly losing whatever his opponent gains would be incentive enough to equip urself properly for combat.

It does not have to be about money though, perhaps just having deaths last longer would be appropriate. Instead of roughly 1 second per level, perhaps it should be 2. Being dead cuts into EXP gain and money gain cause you cannot kill creeps. Either way, there needs to be more emphasis on death penalties in some manner.

[DerSatan]

basically, you are right.

but this problem is known, and some work is going on with that. for example, the discussion about removing the extra hitpoints you gain for experience, which depend on you maximim hp.


but, you forgot that a starting tank with more guns can easily kill other starting tanks which save for better vehicles. you pointed out that its worth less (in absolute numbers) than endgame kills, but money i get in the first 10 mintes is also worth more than the same amount of money i get after an hour. means, if i manage to make some extra kills with my extra weapon early, i can have the same tank at the same time as the guy who saved for it from the beginning, and im in the advantage.

thats the theory.


however, i agree with you, tanks are basically too strong.
thats why i support the total removal of the extra hitpoints given for experience. if that is done, we can see again how the tank <-> item balance works.

[xenocide85]

I agree with Haxz and the perhaps the best example of the tank saving strategy is saving straight for demon tank (esp. if you are level 10 when you get it). What I think should be done to remedy this problem is to apply the same team armor requirements for every tank above goblin shredder. So for example, heavy tank would require Team Armor level 6, Demon Tank level 10, and for the tanks that cost 4,500 (other other non-1000 variations) either round it up or down.

-xenocide85

[DerSatan]

i appreciate adding armor upgrade restriction to every tank about 3k. i know, there are modes with 4k and 5k starting money, too, but i think the vast majority of games are playing with 3k starting gold.

but i think that tanks with a cost not divisible through 1000 without remainder should be rounded down. that would mean these tanks had these armor requirements:

Lightning Tank - 4
Ghost Tank - 4
Goblin Zeppelin - 4
Guard - 5
Heavy Tank - 5
Goblin Tank - 6
Sky Tank - 8
Demon Tank - 10

btw: just postet a replay showing the advantage an early demon tank has: LINK

[Althend]

I agree that giving requirement for all tank (above 3000) is better.

[smelly]

So you want to slow the game down by adding armor requirements on the mid range tanks? No Heavy Tank until 25 minutes? That's a terrible idea when you think about it. Removing the bonus hp or reducing the armor/hp of the tanks across the board would be a better idea as that would encourage people to buy weapons as opposed to forcing them to buy weapons (as they have no other choice thanks to armor requirements).

[Saiyuki]

heyho, been a while... so keep in mind I'm not up2date with all topics... xD *i hope i can still write in good english... hell... xD*

finally i found some free time, so i played a bit.. and what happened? well, u may expect it by me writing a post in here.
the problems with weapons and/or tanks is quite hard. well, i don't rlly have the same prob in my mod, but that's another ...

more or less, my opinion is quite right with "smelly" and "DerSatan"
moreover, i don't rlly like to add more and more requirements ig, not that this may be me to do... so fine xD

but let me get a bit deeper into the first post... the replies includes more or less the same... ^^

___

%damage abilities: (...) In this case, there is a reason to upgrade to a new tank obviously because your abilities are stronger, but having the better tank does not mean an automatic win. This would place emphasis on buying guns because they are a solution.

well, teamplay and then you rock the game, right? 2 heavy tanks in late game using the skill at nearly same time and.. "the end" message for the opposite team. quite funny though... xD

There just needs to be other motives for buying things other than to have abilities that kill because guns become more useless the more abilites there are like this.

altering the abilities might be a point, not in damage or stun, but maybe in mana (about 35% more) and cooldown (about 40% more), or even adding a casting time for the better tanks. (well last one .. not rlly)

It does not have to be about money though, perhaps just having deaths last longer would be appropriate

and i like the idea with increasing the reviving time, too. maybe let the bounty influence it, too? (about 1% could be fine)
___

so far, good work =)

Saiyuki

[horselance]

It would be nice to see that. But waiting for armor upgrade can be annoying also...

[Vomitus]

Armor upgrades for all tanks that cost more than 3k will make air greatly suffer.
You will not be able to buy Sky Tanks earlier than HT, only in 15(!) minutes! And Air Tank is not that thing that can withstand HT. After you buy ST a HT-user has to wait only 10 minutes to buy DT. In these 10 minutes HT will already enough strong to withstand ST. And then, he buys DT.
The only chance to air is to overwhelm LT greatly until HT. And buy medium/big hull. But, who know, how does this strategy will work.

Generally I want to add requirements for all tanks. But make it wisely(like all other changes to this map, thanks Exo & team;) ). I also generally play Air so this issue drives me in deep thoughts...

[Exodus]

Well, in general I also thought that adding requirements to every tank might be a good decision. But first I wanted to see if it really works good in game, thats why only the most expansive tanks got such restrictions.

Someone also suggested adding Armor requirements to every tank, but the level should be: Tank Armor - 2
Also a possible solution ...

[horselance]

So it can be rounded down base HP/1000. Air won't suffer this way...

[Vomitus]

So it can be rounded down base HP/1000. Air won't suffer this way...

This could be a solution. I agree.

[xenocide85]

I think some of you are missing the point. You don't have to wait 25 minutes to get a heavy tank, you can purchase armor upgrades yourself, it just means that you have to invest more money in getting a better tank. The reason this is important is that higher level tanks are always a better option to pick than early weapons. Low level tanks either have to upgrade or get a gold hull to not be completely marginallized, while their abilities remain sub-par.

I'm going to add on to my recommendations for change and relist them all:

(1.) Add armor upgrade level requirement to all tanks by the same metrics they already exist for high level tanks.

(2.) Make taking/holding control points more important. Even if it means that taking them should take longer than it currently does, there should be a larger gain from having them that's readily noticeable as well as a time period to elapse for the gain to take place. For example, your income should increase by +200/tick for each conquered control point after it has been yours for 2 minutes or something.

(3.) Make dying a larger deal. Yes it is already important not to die because you give them lots of money, gain less exp, etc. But there's not a large enough emphasis on it. I recommend either elongating the time you are dead for (based on experience level) and getting some type of monitary benefit for either a good K:D ratio or just either lots of kills or few deaths, each time you get money per tick from the dark forces.

----
Also I have a question, do magic based weapons deal more damage to Heavy Tank, since the HT's armor is Heavy Armor which states it takes more damage from magic weapons?

-xeno

[Exodus]

The armor reduces only physical attack damage, so only damage dealt by Creeps or Towers. Every weapon you can buy for your tank and every damage-ability deals magic damage and thus are not affected by the Heavy Armor. There are no other effects.

[RedNova]

Why not make restrictions apply for a certain range of tanks: demonstration

Tier one tanks: armor 0
Tinker - Ligth tank - Heli - grav tank - demolisher - exploder - shredder

Tier two tanks: armor 4, weapon 4 (20 minutes base)
Air Tank - Heavy tank - goblin tank - guard - ghost tank

Tier 3 tanks: armor 11, weapon 11 (55 minutes base)
Demon tank - frost robot

Special cases:
Infernal (armor/weapons 18)
Titan (armor/weapons 20)

That way once you can buy a certain range, you have multiple options, based on your cash. All tanks in the same category as considered "equals" based on the game length (weapons and XP), with differences based on the cost of each (of COURSE the shredder is better than a ligth tank, it cost 3 times as much, but is weak against a tier 2 tank, unless correctly equipped and played).
The dual restrictions means that a crafty team cannot get a 15-20 minutes advantage on chassis unless spending a lot in tech. Usually, if they can, the game is theirs anyway.

Changing chassis IS the base of getting ahead of your opponents, but I have seldom seen games in which a high chassis with no adequate weapons was too powerful for a balanced team. All in all, getting a demon tank early only meant victory IF the team was good overall.

[jonjon]

Tier one tanks: armor 0
Tinker - Ligth tank - Heli - grav tank - demolisher - exploder - shredder

Tier two tanks: armor 4, weapon 4 (20 minutes base)
Air Tank - Heavy tank - goblin tank - guard - ghost tank

Tier 3 tanks: armor 11, weapon 11 (55 minutes base)
Demon tank - frost robot

Special cases:
Infernal (armor/weapons 18)
Titan (armor/weapons 20)

A tear for the sky tank. You didn't even include it. lol

That strategy is inevitable. A lot of people will always choose defense over attack any day because defense allows you to stay in battle and creep longer. Not to mention the charged up specials that can kill basic tanks. And when I mean basic tanks I mean tinker, light tank, helicopter, anti-grav and demolisher.

But I don't think it's the best strategy. And I would assume the save up means going for anything greater than thunder tank straight up from your initial build.
It's always beaten by someone who progressively builds their tank up in attack and defense, allowing them not to save for that special tank.

Why? Because the save up strategy wastes a lot of time which you could used to develop other aspects of your tank. Using the save up strategy:
Lightning takes roughly 8 minutes.
Air takes 9-10 minutes.
Heavy takes 12-13 minutes.
Goblin takes 16-17 minutes.
Sky takes 20-21 minutes.

But you can get ahead of the attack and defense curve early.
If I could be more specific, it's like this:
You start off with light tank + any weapon (in my case, basic cannon because I can creep with it to my next goal in 5 minutes flat).
At 5 minutes - Buy a shredder and charge up stars so you can push early and creep better. Also prevent them from attacking your creeps for as long as possible.
At 10 minutes - Next on the agenda is to match Shredders HP with a weapon of similar value. Swarms are a good idea (then upgrade it).
At 14-15 minutes - If you're kicking ass and are able to tank everyone, get a second and upgrade.
At 16-17 minutes - Then buy a steel hull to boost your HP to 5700. Then upgrade it to 6700.

You can get this in the same amount of time it takes to get a Goblin Tank, match their HP and have a stronger attack build. Not to mention the constant early pushing, preventing them from making money. And if you've killed enough with this build, you can get a sky in 20 minutes.

[DerSatan]

you got a point there, and saving for a better tank a long time is a less powerful strategy since the base HP increasement has been lowered in 8.42. but there are aspects which you havnt mentioned.

-saving for a better tank means saving for better damage as well. your skills will be more powerful.

-getting a light tank, then a shredder, then the goblin tank (your example) means that you lose 1900 gold just for selling vehicles so far. if you continue that way, going for demon tank and then for infernal for example, you lost a bunch of money. saving straight for better tanks means that you change your tank less often, and therefore lose less money for selling it.

-having more HP instead of better weapons means that you heal faster at you CP's (since a part of the healing is percentage). someone, who saved straight for the demon tank (with demo or antigrav for example) is nearly impossible to kill at his CP at that stage, even if you did well till then and have a medium tank with good weapons. note that i dont really advise you to save straight for the demon tank, thats a really extreme and hard tactic to play if you face good oponnents.

-having more HP is also nice against exploders. they will have enough money to kill you anyway most often, but if you have more HP instead of better weapons (at the same tank overall value) means that the exploder needs more explosives, and therefore has a higher bounty (which is very important).


just some arguments for saving, and saving for better tanks is still the most important (macro) thing in BT. but there was a nice balance change for that in 8.42. it was the right way

[horselance]

Since HP increment changed, i preffer buying a hull at start. When you buy a tank, it means you gonna lose half of that tank's cost when you will change your tank.
Changing too many tanks progressively means losing money progressively. I change only 2 tanks in a game. And i dont like to buy Demon Tank at all because when the time comes, you preffer an Ice rorbot or Infernal, and changing from demon to ice dont make any sense. Even Infernal dont make sense after Demon. And you also lose 5k after.