Short Cooldown of CP Teleport

[Gammagulp]

Well I played a game recently and again you can watch a lot of CP camping. With demons frosttanks and teleporter it gets even worse.

People just teleport everywhere and try to kill others at 1on3. That exploder is turned of I hope I dont need to say. The problem is the followong, if the tanks reach a value of 600 or more a team always teleport to one CP and try to kill. The 75 Teleport gold is not much if a creep later in the endgame give 60Gold, while it was only 24 in the beginning.

So people use the CP TP over and over again with the additional actually 3500 Teleporter range to protect a huge area and kille everyone in 2on1 if possible. Well you now might say it is skill, but otherwise it is really easy if you play that style and gets boring after only some games.

I would like to see the cooldown after using the CP TP for 75 Gold being increased drastic. That means i cannot teleport over the whole map every 4 seconds or what. If someone isnt able to teleport back within the next 12 or 15 seconds Battletanks could get more moving than the static fights atm.
--> I know the enemy lost creepgold at the towers, but the towers were down, so they get all the creep money at the CP´s - pls dont tell me it should be tactical not to kill towers, that would get a very strange characteristic in BT -> dont hurt the enemy buildings

[Prog]

We had a discussion about that in the dev. section about 4 months ago (where Frechheit had nearly exactly the same point of view as you do, but you probably know that anyway). There wasn't a consensus, even tho we mentioned various concepts of dynamic prices, cp tp from/to the base only, cooldown, etc. Personally i'm against any change of the cp teleport cooldown, becouse of various gameplay (currently there are a couple of moves possible, which would be impossible with higher cd) and motivational reasons (as a result of those gameplay changes). If you want me to i can quote my argumentation from the dev.forum (it's german, won't be any problem for you, but maybe for other readers and I'm not in the mood of translating it right now).

I know the enemy lost creepgold at the towers, but the towers were down, so they get all the creep money at the CP´s - pls dont tell me it should be tactical not to kill towers, that would get a very strange characteristic in BT -> dont hurt the enemy buildings

Becouse of that the bounty was increased.

btw: Quite funny is the subjective perception in your last part. One of the argumentation against a change of the cptp, was the more dynamic and faster gameplay _with_ cptps as they are now. Same goes for teleporters, in my opinion a game without teleporters/worse cptp is way more static and boring. I really become sleepy playing side lane something like heavy/air ship/thunder vs heavy/air ship/thunder without porters, it's just too boring to me.

[Althend]

I admit that the full telep jump game is annoying sometimes, even by using breaker. That is why i suggested an improved breaker (that prevents people from using teleport)

[Exodus]

Well I played a game recently and again you can watch a lot of CP camping. With demons frosttanks and teleporter it gets even worse.

People just teleport everywhere and try to kill others at 1on3. That exploder is turned of I hope I dont need to say. The problem is the followong, if the tanks reach a value of 600 or more a team always teleport to one CP and try to kill. The 75 Teleport gold is not much if a creep later in the endgame give 60Gold, while it was only 24 in the beginning.

So people use the CP TP over and over again with the additional actually 3500 Teleporter range to protect a huge area and kille everyone in 2on1 if possible. Well you now might say it is skill, but otherwise it is really easy if you play that style and gets boring after only some games.

I would like to see the cooldown after using the CP TP for 75 Gold being increased drastic. That means i cannot teleport over the whole map every 4 seconds or what. If someone isnt able to teleport back within the next 12 or 15 seconds Battletanks could get more moving than the static fights atm.
--> I know the enemy lost creepgold at the towers, but the towers were down, so they get all the creep money at the CP´s - pls dont tell me it should be tactical not to kill towers, that would get a very strange characteristic in BT -> dont hurt the enemy buildings

I made the same suggestion like you. Prog says, that the game gets more static and boring with a worse CPTP, but I think it's just the other way round. When you are able to lure some enemies to a lane CP, your team members in mid now know, that they can try to get the mid CP, without having to fear the immediate return of the enemies. This rewards an offensive style of playing the game, instead of a defensive one, which is nearly always better for the game. This way it would be possible to have much more captures and re-captures of CPs, which equals are more dynamic gameplay for me.

Prog also said, that with a longer cooldown he wouldn't be able to defend 2 CPs on his own, which would limit a single player's possibilities and thus his motivation to play the game. I already told him, that I think that this is a rather weak argument, considering BT is a team game. Just like you lose some possibilities, you'd gain new ones, like the tactic described above.

Well, you can see where this discussion were going. Other suggestions for possible changes were a higher price for the CPTP (maybe even dynamic - increasing over time) or restricted targets for the CPTP, like only from the base to a CP, but not in between CPs.

[Frechheit]

The Problem in the Game is depending on the skills of the Player.

I would say if i play with inde,velo etc. camping for a team wouldnt make a difference.

The thing i want to say is the camping is only Imba when the other team dont know what to do and how to use the camping-actions of the enemies.

Teamplay actions would solve the probs like 5 guys port immediately on point or dual cp attacking.

But i must admit the skill of players is poor. And in intern games its much higher but not high too.

Guys want to play Bt in private but dont want to change themselves dont want to play Teamplay.

I dont mean you with that Gamma

But maybe your team comrades were not playing right against camping guys.

[horselance]

I see that camping too much too. Even myself is sometimes a camper. Ppl wait at their cp while healing and killing incoming waves of creeps and if something goes wrong at other cp, instantly tp there and save the day with generaly multikills. And mostly cps are conquered after that multikills because there is usually no other way to take a cp. "Wait for enemy, kill them and take that lane.."
Waiting at cp for opportunity mustnt be so advantageous...

[ChronicStoned]

i already hate it to wait until the current cptp cooldown ends when buying a weapon in base ( tp in base-buy-wait-tp to lane).
but i also see the problems you discribed Gammagulp.

[eSVau]

This tactic descibes by Gamma is the reason i stopped playing those "btbt" internal games of northrend top clans. It's just fucking boring - everyone start with long range, after about 10min switch to Air Ship with short range (sometimes one gets a Sky Tank at 20) und stay close to CP waiting for a victim due port (item or CP) and return to their nearest CP and about min. 45 everyone save for Frost Robot or pushing upgrades for an imbalanced Infernal after an hour.

10 of 10 internal games look like this. And the only way to counter this teleport tactics is doing the same boring shit and waiting for opponents mistakes.

[Prog]

Prog also said, that with a longer cooldown he wouldn't be able to defend 2 CPs on his own, which would limit a single player's possibilities and thus his motivation to play the game. I already told him, that I think that this is a rather weak argument, considering BT is a team game. Just like you lose some possibilities, you'd gain new ones, like the tactic described above.

The argument is rather weak, but not becouse of the reason you are giving, but rather becouse it's backing is my own subjective insight of motivation. But the "team game weakness" fails in this context: Making the best possibility to help a teammate a lot weaker can't be in favor of the team game charakter per definitionem. In fact you can imagine that the side lane games would be total 1on1s without cptp/porter.

[TKF]

Well, I think this ability is an important feature to btanks which makes it unique compared to other aos maps. Well I won't argue if the cooldown is increased by 0.5 sec, but more would remove the ability to be able to defend 2 cps quickly.


As for the towers creepkill steal, i know you lose 2/3 of the gold due to the current gold sharing system. I may agree Gamma on that point that leaving towers alive is kinda a weird tactic.



I've used different gold distribution system in my naval battle map, there 100% of the force gold is shared, but the force must spend gold on upgrades so therefore you won't get 100% of the gold. But using this system in btanks will give more gold the players, perhaps twice as much before.... I guess this is not an option.

[Doomhammer112]

I see camping quite often, too. But I can say that I usually just don't go to take the CP over. I just let him be there and wait while I kill creeps and he just loses his time (as you know the creeps give much gold at the end and mid, so I gain much gold while he just don't get nothing). After some time he must move because he wont get no gold and he will be boor if he just sits there...Also I quite use this tactics that if a guy waits somewhere then me and another team mate goes to two different CP so he can't stop both.

[horselance]

The argument is rather weak, but not becouse of the reason you are giving, but rather becouse it's backing is my own subjective insight of motivation. But the "team game weakness" fails in this context: Making the best possibility to help a teammate a lot weaker can't be in favor of the team game charakter per definitionem. In fact you can imagine that the side lane games would be total 1on1s without cptp/porter.

Start of game noone helps side lanes unless it is being captured. But in later phase ppl start going lanes to help (well lets preffer to say help and ks) weaker or 2v1 to 2v2 or 2v3 advantage etc...
I am pretty sure you know the reason why ppl not help lanes until a specific time even if they can easily help:
going a lane is 75 gold and returning your lane is 75 gold. A tank will give you at most 200 gold and if you are not able to kill it, your 150 is wasted. Lets say your chance to kill that guy is 50% and so getting 200 at 50% is 100 gold earn where you must spend 150. Not a good bet.
Where ppl start giving more than 300 your bet is good therefore worth a challange and help. And here starts the clusters of cptp.

I may want to see relative cptp costs but still not sure. If you die a lot than it will be a pain to use cptp... Maybe only from base>>cp can be 75 gold and cp>>base and cp>>cp can increase in time..
So helping a weak will cost you money if you really need to help..

[Gammagulp]

Well Doomhammer - to underline what I mean I give a simple example of that last game - its tricky, but it works very very great:

2 Players at lane play antigrav with glaive and hull. They level the jump and the stun and max the jump maybe to 1400 Range with lvl 7.

--> Both antigrav do little creeping, but stay always close to their CP. Now antigrav 2 jump to antigrav 1.

Even if you retreat immediately antigrav 1 attacks you with jump and hold you. Maybe he would die because of your own creeps, but ... antigrav 2 comes and jumps at you too, using the same stun - with lvl 10 you are even double taken out cause of the ultimate. You play 1on1 usally at the lane with no teleporter --> but the jump helps 2 antigravs to kill everyone light tank even with hull because it gets ganging 2on1.

After that they rush back to cp and antigrav 2 gets back to his lane. When there is another player to close at that lane antigrav 1 also comes there and the guy at the other lane is killed too

So: We tried to attack at once, but the cooldown was so little, that always (even without the help of the mid teammates of the antigrav players) they could defend both CP´s in a range of about 1400 with about 75% Chance of killing, even if I got airship and I was aware of this tactic. All you can do is waiting in a big range of CP --> Thats not Funny :wink:

So even an increased CPTP cooldown would help so both are able to attack the CP and only antigrav 1, who not teleportet, can def the other lane. It is not said, that the 3 mid also cant teleport; their cooldown would be also ready.

I think the antigrav tactic is good, but holding 2 CPs at once with both tanks is too unfair IMO. --> the one who didnt TP (antigrav 1) could get to the other lane (from antigrav 2) with longer CPTP cooldown, because antigrav 1 didnt CPTP.

@Prog: I know that there is a tactic of retreating with low Hitpoints by teleport away and come back before the CP is taken over with another CPTP, but I think thats a really weird tactic

[BENNIE.FM]

ok camping annoys the hell out of me espically in private games against other (clans)you may sit there 5 minutes with out healing once and they may heal 15-20 seconds -_- but they only go as far as there tower annoying.But keep tp the way it is i have read the arugments i like it they it is and camping can lead to less creeping which = weaker tanks with a good team the opposing team camping just get run over.

@esvau Its kinda true i would say 10/10 aswell

[Exodus]

Well, since your problem is mostly camping, what about this: When an enemy gets near your CP, it loses it's ability to heal. That way, you could also fight enemies at their own CP, so camping at them won't be as advantageous.

Or a different attempt:
I also thought about a concept of "neutral" Control Points. But there were some problems, which probably wouldn't improve the gameplay in the end. I imagined something like this:

1. You get near the enemy CP
   
2. Regardless if there is an enemy or not, you start capturing it, or rather they lose their ownership of it, which would last about 5 seconds
   
3. After that, the CP is neutral, so neither one gets any advantages out of it (no creeps, healing and CPTP) and you can't start capturing it, as long as there is an enemy
   
4. When there is only one team left at the CP it start's capturing the it, which also lasts about 5 seconds.

Well, I'm not sure about this, so post your opinion about this. One problem of the second suggestion would be the AntiGrav, he can disable his enemy and walk right up the CP and start capturing it and you couldn't do much about it.

[horselance]

First suggestion wont do any help because camper can still get a backup any time.
Second suggestion is interesting.

[Althend]

The problem with second suggestion is that hit/and run cp would be too good.

I just would use my teleport to reach one cp. People would only have 5 sec to react before the cp get neutral. Then it would be too late for them to cptp.


I suggest another easier idea. When players cp-tp they lose 30% of their hp. The heal aura is still the same but defending would need more prevision/coordination.

[Prog]

I don't like either of those attempts.

@ 1.: In my point of view a cp should be an advantage in defending, removing the heal whenever an enemy gets near it nihilates the advantage. Once being weaker than the opponent and without a tower you will need a teammate helping you out all the time, the teammates will have to camp even more (earlier).

@ 2.: 5 sec till neutral cp would imply that you need to cptp nearly instantly when the enemy is at your cp, you can imagine which results this implys.

€:

I suggest another easier idea. When players cp-tp they lose 30% of their hp. The heal aura is still the same but defending would need more prevision/coordination

If 5 players port to a side lane cp it would be suicide to try defending then. Rather bad in my opinion. (5 players porting there is allready very very hard to counter, but it requires teamplay. Frechheit mentioned that way to counter campers allready, i think it's enough, but you need quite some teamplay for that.)

[Althend]

Or just make breaker buyable at cp :p
30% is maybe too much, then why not 20% and slowness during 7 sec (so defenders cant run after attackers who get away of cp? )

[Gammagulp]

If you dont like the longer cooldown why not a mixture. The neutral Cp need even more camping to teleport within 5 seconds, thats true

Mixed suggestion:
CPTP: Slows your tank by 30% the next 4-7Seconds maybe. So you can defend the cp, but not hunt down enemy tanks to easy because you got the healing rate. The problem No. 1 is, that if you drive out of your CP the aura stays for the next 3-4seconds. You can see that in the beginning when light tanks with 70%HP leave the healing range, but are full healed while driving away.

A CP taken over by 80%, that means 8 Seconds, could get a "lesser CP". With maybe only 35-50% Healing rate of the original CP. If the capturing time reaches 0 after a succesful defending, it would remain to the normal CP with 100% healing rate. If caputered it gets the normal Cp for the enemies.
--------------------------------

I see nearly every clan games CP´s not take over just because of 1 or 2 seconds. Standing still 8-10 seconds at the enemy CP is really dangerous. Reducing Speed (and if nearly captured - Healing rate too) would give the attacker a chance to retreat even 2on3 or at 1on2.

--> only the teleporter is strong again, but if the healing rate is reduced you maybe cant wait 5 seconds till you are healed and teleport after the retreating enemy, but need 10-15seconds and then the enemy could be out of range

Neutral CP´s are to extremely agressive gameplay buffed i think. Except the neutral CP would belong to the defending team and it could teleport there with no healing rate.

@Althend: TP Breakers buyable at Cp. Really nice idea